How accurate was the film and the music?

What do you think?

Well, I think the reasoning behind elevating Judas to a saint are very misguided. First off, God did not command Judas to betray Jesus, He, (God) simply new that Judas would betray him. Rather Judas was selected by Christ based on the knowledge that Judas would betray Christ is debatable. Again, Judas did not betray Christ in order to fullfill prophesy but to drive Jesus into action; the kind of action Judas wanted (which was essentially a revolution). I believe Judas was just a means to accomplish what needed to be accomplished mainly because he was there at the time. Bottom line, the cruxcifictian had to happen and had to be initiated through Jewish involvement.

Scott

Of course the question if Judas made it into heaven is a difficult one to answer. I hope he did, but only God knows for sure.

NP: Capricorn One (*****/*****)

"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve"
Matthew 22 : 3

"And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;"
John 13 : 2

Again, Eve was not possessed but sinned because of Satan's manipulation. Any action performed under possession is an act of Satan not the person.

We all deal with Satan's subliminal suggestions on a daily basis. Thankfully we as believers have the great Counselor who helps us to resist thesese mental assaults.

Anyway, I believe Judas was tempted and acted or failed as Eve, but he was not possessed.

Chris, I respect your opinions and posts tremendously and see you as a very educated believer. I could be wrong here and can't wait to hear your response.

Allow me to qualify the definition of "possession." When Judas GAVE himself over to Satan, his actions and Satan's actions became synonymous. Here's why:

According to Christian Dogma, if souls yield their wills to Satan, HE grows stronger. If souls yield their wills to God, THEY grow stronger. In this way, a relationship with the Devil is the EXACT OPPOSITE of a relationship with the Divine. So, when Judas freely yielded to Satan, he LOST his will and his soul.

Of course, most (if not all) who yield their souls to Satan expect power. They do not realize that they are being decieved -- he is, after all, the Father of Lies. True to form, Satan abandoned Judas in the face of Christ. Judas never understood this. He never understood that if he had turned to God with repentance like the good thief, he WOULD have been forgiven. He would have met his Lord in heaven, and would now be commemorated among the saints. Instead he commited suicide.

Judas first cast aside his soul, and then he cast aside his body. No one made him do it. Can any doubt that Judas Iscariot burns in Hell? Not without rewriting scripture!

Ah -- but what about that part about evil furthering God's plan? Please recall that Christ, in a Human body, DID NOT KNOW the thoughts of the Godhead -- God the Father. He communicated with God in the same way we do -- fasting and prayer: he set the perfect example. He too was baptised -- he too was blessed by the Holy Spirit (one reason I have a problem with Catholic Dogma concerning the Triune nature -- they claim that the Spirit PROCEEDS from the SON as WELL as the Father -- but that's another post.) Remember: he cried out "My, God, WHY have you forsaken me?" Holiest of Holies, Christ was given to Prophecy, but while on Earth, he was NOT Omniscient. He did not select Judas as a manipulative tactic. He selected Judas out of LOVE and out of HOPE. God may have known that Judas would betray Jesus. BUT the choice was Christ's, and his motives were pure.

And that's MY take on the situation.

PS - I did enjoy "Jesus Christ Superstar," but only as far as a speculative secular experiment can go. Scripture remains light-years ahead in my mind. (Although J.C.S has one thing the Bible ain't got -- a swingin' Dixie number! )

I have never said I had pity on Judas, I only said he wasn't possessed.

More on this later.

Chris, I said the same thing. Eve was deceived and Adam was not, that's why Adam was the bigger fool (so to speak). Judas was deceived, but more on that later.

He was the only responsible individual!

There are no "large & small fools" here...

Adam was responsible, and Eve was not.

And I'm splitting hairs, as usual.

I also only accept the bible as proof. So it saddens me to say, well...actually I am happy about it, but you guys are right. After deeply studying Luke 22:3 I must admit that Judas indeed was possesed. Don't know how that line ever escaped my attention.

So, I apologize openly here for arguing so much. Am glad you guys guided me towards this very important truth.

Chris, I don't think Adam was responsable at all. Eve was tricked by Satan, which is to her credit, because the devil is good in what he does. Yet Adam wasn't even deceived, he just did what his wife told him to do, which is why God was so angry with him to begin with.

Brian,
interesting subject you brought up. I actually thought about that three times denying thing. What is interesting about the "do you love me" conversation is that Jesus used the word "agape" which means roughly unconditional, godly love. Peter however used a different word (which I can't recall right now...am at work)to express his devotion to Christ.

So, yes Judas could have been saved had he repented, and I'm still careful as to the question if he was saved or not. Anyway, I don't think Peter was forgiven because of the "do you love me " conversation, after all, Jesus gave up on that after the third time, Peter just would never use "agape".

Of course once Judas realized what he had done, he could have realized that forgivness was still there. But being posessed at this time, there was not much opening there anymore. Truly a sad set of circumstances.

What interests me more now, and you guys may be able to help me here, is several fold.

First: Satan knew who Jesus was. After all he knows scripture probably more than we do. He even tried to prevent Jesus from accomplishing his deed by prompting Peter to argue with Jesus about what He had told him would have to happen. Remember what Jesus said"Get ye behind me Satan" He didn't speak to Peter but to the devil, because the devil was trying to meddle in the devine plan.

So, why did Satan posess Judas and drive him to betray Jesus, if it was in his best interest to keep the Son of God alive?

I hope I make sense here.

Here are some of the other observations I've had over the years.

Jesus appears in the Old Testament ... in a manner of speaking. Christian Dogma claims that the Three Divine Persons who visited Abraham and Sarah were the Holy Trinity. Christ's baptism is the ONLY other time in the Bible where all three members of the Trinity were physically incarnate.

Jesus probably wasn't the white, fair-haired European that pops up in most post-reformation icons and childrens cartoons. His skin was probably a tanned brown.

Jesus wasn't born in the stable of conventional times. It was a cave where they kept the animals. He was born OF the Earth, IN the Earth.

In Byzantine Iconography, color is very important. For instance: purple is the regal color of Heaven. Blue is the color of Earth. Hence, Chris is always pictured as wearing a blue robe over a purple one (Heaven clothed in the garments of Earth) and the Virgin Mary wears a purple robe over a blue one (Earth clothed in the garments of Heaven.) Pretty neat, huh?

And on the subject of medicine: I find it interesting that when Jesus cured the blind beggar, he first made a paste out of the soil. He could have simply commanded the healing ... but he didn't.

For years of Roman oppression, the symbol of Christianity was a fish. Why? It's not because of the miracle of the loaves and the fish. It's not because several of the apostles were fisherman. It's because the word for "fish" in Greek is "ICHTHYS", spelled I, X, theta, Y, S. It is an acronym for "Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior."

I'll disagree. The key is that he WAS responsible. He CHOSE to listen to his wife and place her ABOVE God. That is why he could not remain in Paradise.

"Eve was tricked by Satan, which is to her credit, because the devil is good in what he does."

Well, I'm sure Satan is QUITE the smooth-talker. But I still wouldn't say that her gullibility was to Eve's CREDIT.

"Yet Adam wasn't even deceived, he just did what his wife told him to do, which is why God was so angry with him to begin with."

Exactly. How does this make him not responsible for his choice, though?

Oh ... and to answer your other question: Satan was trying to meddle in the Divine plan just for that purpose ... to meddle. If he could cause Christ to turn away from God, then Christ's death would have no power over him. Of course, Christ resisted all of Satan's temptations, breaking the gates of Hell, and destroying the power of death.

The Orthodox Paschal Hymn is celebrated loudly and frequently every Easter season. It goes thus:

Christ is risen from the dead!
And through death, he has TRAMPLED DOWN death
Abolishing the power of the Devil
And restoring LIFE to those in the tombs!

We call it the Victory Hymn. It's glorious.

(PeterK, you've been remarkably patient with these sideline semantics. Thanks! I've been really impressed myself by the way this board has been able to digress so gracefully and respectfully, without disintegrating into flame-wars, and understanding that no one here is trying to FORCE anything on anybody. Communication is a beautiful thing.)

Scott, you must take a look at 1 Timothy 2 : 14. The Word tells us that Eve was deceived, but Adam MADE THE WRONG CHOICE. HE SINNED AGAINST GOD.

If your own personal study does not convince you of that fact, I'll try to find the tape I have of (your pastor) Jack Hayford, who taught on this very subject, taking it one step further...Hayford points out that Jesus was "the Second Adam" according to Scripture. The FIRST Adam was sinless, just like Jesus, until the moment that he fell. BUT, had he chosen NOT to disobey God, HE could have been Eve's Savior! He could have given HIS life to save HER!
But he did not.
This is a purely theoretical concept, however it is Scripturally correct. And it does give us pause to consider what might have been.

Back to Judas...
I don't give a hoot what Dante says about it, Wedge, because Dante's word isn't the Word of God. It's a fascinating perspective, but it's not always God's perspective.
The truth of the matter is that while we know a great deal about Judas's awful spiritual condition, we truly CANNOT know if his spirit and eternal soul resides in heaven or in hell.
The Bible doesn't say.

This we know:

Judas was a thief.
He was possessed by Satan.
He betrayed the Son of God.
However, even though he was a thief, stealing money from Jesus's treasury, he disposed of the fee that he earned for turning Jesus over to the authorities.
He committed suicide.

I happen to believe that there is room here for the Grace of God to manifest...

Don't misunderstand me...there is absolutely NO scriptural evidence (that I've found) for me to stand on here, except for "God's love never fails" "God IS love", and : "God's mercies are new every morning". Perhaps I'll recall a few others...

All I am saying is that we know through Scripture that Judas was a sad, tortured man. Yes, he permitted Satan to possess his spirit, but he didn't expect Jesus to be executed, and afterwards, he committed suicide because of what he had done.
BUT, Scripture does NOT tell us that he went to hell. So, it is possible that he did not.

Wedge, don't give me any Dante here, because YOU AND I are JUST as responsible for the death of Jesus as Judas was.

We weren't present at the trial, but WE ARE JUST AS GUILTY, because Jesus died for ALL OF OUR SINS!

Before you reply, please give that one some time to marinate, OK?

again, I am in complete agreement with you guys that Adam was soley responsable and sinned. Lately, I have done a poor job explaining myself here. I'll try to do better. In other words, I agree with you guys totally. Yes, I had some doubts about the possession question of Judas, but after my study I see you guys are right.

Scott

This is fun

Guess what I am playing?

"I don't give a hoot what Dante says about it, Wedge, because Dante's word isn't the Word of God. It's a fascinating perspective, but it's not always God's perspective."

I agree. I wasn't implying that Dante was absolutely correct in any way. It was just, as you say, an *interesting* perspective, one reflective of the theology of the time.

"The truth of the matter is that while we know a great deal about Judas's awful spiritual condition, we truly CANNOT know if his spirit and eternal soul resides in heaven or in hell ... Scripture does NOT tell us that he went to hell. So, it is possible that he did not."

Scripture does not TELL us that ANYONE went to Hell. But I think certain cases can be inferred. Herod, for instance. Or the example of the thief on the cross who REJECTED Jesus. If God's love and mercy transcends repentance, as opposed to being bound by it, then why did not Christ turn to the unrepentant thief, and tell HIM he would be with Him in Heaven?

So I disagree with your sentiments, Chris, and here's why. Judas threw away the three greatest gifts God gave him: his body, his soul, and his savior. IF he remained unrepentant, as the Bible indicates, he COULD NOT recieve salvation. To do so would be to NEGATE the WORD of God.

"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Jesus makes it perfectly clear that God has set up a system wherin SALVATION is exchanged for REPENTENCE. "I tell you, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3) Paul writes in his epistle to the Hebrews, concerning an outcast sinner: "For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears."

You said, "I happen to believe that there is room here for the Grace of God to manifest ... "God's love never fails" "God IS love", and : "God's mercies are new every morning"."

Where repentance for sins does not exist, there is NO room for the Grace of God. That's just the way God made it. Do you find it strange, that He should bind His Infinite Grace to a Human action of repentance? Don't. After all, He bound Himself in Human form, and gave Himself up for Human judgment; for we are his best-loved creations.

No, God did not fail Judas. JUDAS failed GOD. The Bible teaches: "Look diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God." If Judas died WITHOUT repentance, and was STILL saved, then God is a liar. If Judas did not repent, he CUT HIMSELF OFF from God's Love. For God to save Judas ANYWAY would be akin to spiritual rape. God does NOT force salvation on ANY soul (children excepted, because they have no knowledge of sin.)

2 Corinthians 7:10 teaches that "For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death." Judas did regret. He was consumed by the sorrow of the world. The product? Death. The Bible offers NO alternatives.

"Wedge, YOU AND I are JUST as responsible for the death of Jesus as Judas was."

Exactly. This is why repentance is so necessary. God wants EVERY soul to come to him. He calls them back, and His voice is mighty. Judas was lucky -- he had it straight from the mouth of God's son! And he didn't listen. What more could God do? He OFFERED Judas salvation. He practically GAVE it to him. His heart was OVERFLOWING with LOVE. IF (and I say IF) Judas did not repent sincerely before his death (as is indicated,) the Bible makes it plain. He burns in Hell; there is no room for speculation.

Excellently said once more, Bruthuh Wedge!
I am in complete agreement. The only tiny opening that Judas had was right there in your "IF":

"IF (and I say IF) Judas did not repent sincerely before his death (as is indicated,) the Bible makes it plain."

You're correct, the facts indicate that there was no repentance, however the act of disposing of the blood money (by a known thief) presents questions...a possibility (albeit a slim one). One thing is certain: we'll find out one day!

"To pity the damned is to suggest that their pain is not wholly due them"

Sorry boys, but I have the same macho contempt for religion that H.L. Mencken had. I can understand women & children being weak & gullible enough to believe in all of this religious wishful-thinking, but grown men really have no excuse. Religion is a crutch for effeminate gullible weaklings. And instead of luxuriating in your Christian smugness, you should be ashamed of yourselves for being cowardly effeminate suckers. Instead of condemning other people for being non-Christians, you should be condemning yourselves for being gullible Christian wimps. If anybody deserves to burn in hell, it's all of you fundamentalist Christian fascists.

I can still hear that rich, deep hearty laughter coming from downstairs.

A bit more respect and a well thought out argument eh'pal?!

I'm not religious or christian and anything I would say here would be well thought out before I would commit it here!!

Right, Mom?

Oh, and you forgot to mention "cowardly effeminate suckers".

That is simply not true.

Jesus said:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Jesus was God in the flesh, and He said those words with sorrow in His heart for lost souls. I have that same sorrow in my heart for ANY soul that perishes, Luscious.

"Chris Kinsinger thinks that Muslims & Buddhists & Jehovah's Witnesses deserve to go to hell."

I never said those words, and I don't believe them either.

IF Muslims & Buddhists & Jehovah's Witnesses DO go to hell, it is because they REJECTED Jesus the Messiah, the Anointed One, the Son of the Living God. IF they DO go to hell, it is because they were deceived by the enemy of their souls, who is responsible for those three man-made sects. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it. I don't DESERVE the salvation that God gave to me as a free gift. Nobody DESERVES it. Nobody can EARN it. Many souls will be short-circuited into hell because they are blind to the truth, and that is tragic.
There ARE Spiritual Laws that can be obeyed or they can be violated. Simply because one may be ignorant of them, or deceived about them, does not exempt a person from either the blessings that follow obedience, or the curse that will surely follow disobedience.
You cannot see the Law of Gravity, but many have paid the ultimate price for violating it.

"Chris Kinsinger approves of a God who consigns people to hell just because they're non-Christians."

Chris Kinsinger approves of The Living God Jehovah, who saves people from eternal damnation. He NEVER consigns anyone to it. He moves His hand to rescue souls from hell. He suffered in the flesh a torturous and bloody death in order to secure your place in heaven with Him.
That's MY God!

I don't know which god you're referring to, Luscious.

"Chris Kinsinger approves of a God who consigns people to hell just because they're non-Christians. Chris Kinsinger thinks that Muslims & Buddhists & Jehovah's Witnesses deserve to go to hell."

Now gentlemen, you know how I avoid these eschatological and Elia Kazan catfights much the same way I abstain from carcinogens polluting the oxygen supply, but I must step out of character and interject with a friendly correction courtesy of my lovely neighbor (and JW) Tracey in the cubicle next-door. I have been assured that she most definitely accepts Jesus as the Messiah and as her personal savior and utters every prayer in Jesus' name, and she most certainly believes Jesus is The Son of God, and the tract that is now in my possession states "And although some have claimed that we are not truly Christians, this is simply not true." What is true, as is also clearly indicated in this tract, is that they are not trinitarians.

Gentlemen, I leave this thread by para-quoting our beloved Mr. Rutledge: "I am not interested in what's written in the Book Of Faith right now as I am in what's written in that little paper 'Jerry' took from that hole in the wall up at McKone Manor..."

are you one of these people that staunchly believes in hell, yet won't even consider the possibility of a heaven?

"I can't believe I'm bothering to respond to a Christian fundamentalist zombie like Wedge, but I've really had a bellyful of his garbage. Sorry boys, but I have the same macho contempt for religion that H.L. Mencken had. I can understand women & children being weak & gullible enough to believe in all of this religious wishful-thinking, but grown men really have no excuse. Religion is a crutch for effeminate gullible weaklings. And instead of luxuriating in your Christian smugness, you should be ashamed of yourselves for being cowardly effeminate suckers. Instead of condemning other people for being non-Christians, you should be condemning yourselves for being gullible Christian wimps. If anybody deserves to burn in hell, it's all of you fundamentalist Christian fascists"

did we have a bad childhood?
I will say though, that Christians are to reprimand each other for not being strong examples, and for not living the right way, bringing others down with them. And many are just as blameworthy for being too much in-your-face Bible beaters. That kind of stuff just turns people against the faith, and makes them label us as intolerant and judgmental, when in fact, we are to be THE MOST tolerant people on the face of the Earth. It's not for us to judge people, as the Bible clearly points out. Leave that to God.
As one is exposed to it, it takes a person's own curiosity to take that first step. I witness to a person, and let them take the reigns. It's their choice, nothing I can do to force anything on them.

WHO do you think you ARE, trying to get this thread BACK ON-TOPIC???

As a matter of fact, I've seen Superstar numerous times, but I have yet to experience "Godspell" even ONCE!

Never even heard the music!

Wait a minute...wasn't there a "hit" song called "Day By Day" from that one?

The following is from deep, DEEP memory:

Day by day,
Day by day,
Oh, dear Lord, three things I pray:
To see Thee more clearly,
Love Thee more dearly,
Follow Thee more nearly
Day by day...

I'm afraid you may have gotten a few mistaken impressions concerning me and what I believe. First of all, I have been speaking mainly TO fellow Christians, ABOUT internal Christian dogmas. And anyone who wanted to listen or chime in was MORE than welcome to do so.

You see, despite your rather unsupported claim, I am not a bigot. I value diversity, and champion the right for people to choose their own religion. I REFUSE to condemn ANYONE based on race, creed, or ethnicity. God judges -- not me.

Nor do I believe that all Bhuddists, Muslims, Jews, Indians, etc. are going to Hell. Quite the OPPOSITE! I would NEVER presume as much, and you insult me to suggest that I would.

As for your assertion that Christianity is a weak-minded crutch, you're not the first to make such a suggestion. All I can say is that there ARE Christians who are insecure. There ARE Christian religions that exploit people, mainly due to the vast amount of people exploiting Christian religions -- whether for personal power or as a moral salve.

But let me assure you that there is a PROFOUND psychological, philosophical and LOGICAL argument to be made Christianity. If you can't find it, I submit that perhaps you are looking in the wrong places. Or perhaps you just don't care to see.

"Fundamentalist Zombie?" Now that's just funny! I chose my religion, it didn't choose me.

Regardless, I will not judge you. Nor will I ask for an apology I sincerely doubt one would be forthcoming, in any case.) All that I ask is that you not label me with the same sort of groundless and bigoted aggression that you claim I have exhibited. It makes me look bad; it makes you look bad. I'd rather hoped we could avoid this sort of unpleasantness altogether. That's what keeping an open mind is all about, after all.

Now as far as Christianity (or any religion) being for the effeminate, gullible
and weak such as women and children...ahh, err, well..Would you
believe that I espouse to the belief “women submit, children obey,”
and that I wear a veil and cover my arms? No? Don’t blame you
BECAUSE THAT DOESN’T GO OVER IN THIS HOUSE!!
I hope L.L. didn’t mean that the adjective “gullible and weak” can only
be attributed to women and children. I’ve been gullible and weak at
times, and so has my husband, brother, dad, and male friends.

I too, have had painful personal experiences with "Christian" families who somehow managed to get all of the concepts wrong.
Wives beaten into "submission", children tormented.
This isn't Christianity...it is Christian-ISM.
RELIGION, NOT REALITY.
I don't know where it got messed up, but I DO know that there are a hundred or more erroneous Bible teachers for every reliable one.

Did you notice that I didn't have to ask you to step in?

I KNEW you were here all along!