Whenever I try to honestly communicate to you anything relating to my relationship with God, you gleefully tell me about Harvey.

Daniel, your eyes are blind (and I am NOT making reference to Elton John or Bernie Taupin, I promise you!).

You glibly toss off references to mythical nonsense, while I am endeavoring to inform you about Real People with Real Problems, getting REAL ANSWERS from a REAL GOD!

I'm one of those real people, and I'm here to tell you that ALL of your attempts to explain God away cannot make Him go!

History has demonstrated that the man with an ARGUMENT is ALWAYS subject to the man with an EXPERIENCE!

You've got a bagful of arguments, Daniel2.
I've got 30 years FULL of experiences!

That brings me to Tim Dinsdale's movie of Nessie. I would think that a boat would be obvious to those who studied the film. Granted the object is shot from a distance and it is in black & white, but it does not look like a boat from that distance in my opinion. It seems most pictures of Nessie have an explanation behind them. Even the underwater pictures taken by Robert Rhines in the early 70's were accused of being touched up pictures of rising gas pockets, tree trunks or other underwater disturbances.

Never been sure about the Patterson/Gimlin film ... every alternate time I see it, I think either "cool fake" or "must be real." One of the most striking moments in it involves the guy with the camera, who's riding the horse, which rears up in alarm at the sight of the alleged beast. Of course the horse could have been trained to rear for any given reason at all, but how many WEEKS of rehearsal would it have taken to get that PARTICULAR footage -- horse rearing, Bigfoot retreating, and so on?

Because neither of you CARE ENOUGH to DO what MUST Be done in order to change your current circumstances!

Remember that wonderful scene in Brian DePalma's The Untouchables, where Costner & Connery were "praying" in the chapel?

Connery challenged Costner with these PROFOUND WORDS:

"WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO?"

I cannot speak for Mr. Olivarez, but I HAVE been hearing the very same complaint from Mr. Rocco for well over THREE YEARS NOW, and all I have to tell you is...you're NOT getting any younger, or any more attractive!

If what you are doing has not been in any way attracting the opposite sex to you...then you MUST CHANGE YOUR WAYS!

What? You’re 32 and single and sat indoors on a Saturday night. Surely the only reason for that is you don’t want to go out and meet some pretty young ladies.

Perhaps you haven’t any money, maybe you’re very shy, maybe you’re a ‘Johnny-no-friends’, or the problem could be, and I hesitate to say this, you are an ardent Goldsmith fan.

If you do get the opportunity to meet a young lady in the future, there is only one important rule to remember, don’t mention Jerry Goldsmith – that’s when the young lady in question will suddenly say, ‘….I’ve just gotta go to the rest room’, only to disappear like a MovieMusic Message Board thread. If by some miracle you do progress to the “I’ve got this cool album I’d like you to hear” stage, at which point you place AIR FORCE ONE in the hi-fi, take care, because many courts view such a crime with equal seriousness to date-rape….jury selection in these instances is very easy, because it is almost impossible to find a remotely interested party – ie a Jerry Goldsmith fan.

I’m afraid if you’ve left it this long, you are probably doomed to a life of bachelorhood.

You see, it used to be the case that men remained eligible bachelors well into their 40s – not so today. If you’re a bloke, you’re on the scrapheap by the time you reach 29. Today, it is emancipated woman who is enjoying the ‘second childhood’ in her late 30s and early 40s, hence the increasing number of women in that age group that engage in extra-marital relations with much younger men, while their receding, bespectacled and paunchy husbands remain at home hunched in their armchairs chewing on potato chips, unless you’re a regular Don Juan like Chris Kinsinger of course.

I look forward to receiving tape recordings of your conversations with Jehovah, or similarly tangible evidence of the Creator’s existence.

You are right when you talk about “Everything in the tangible universe manifests in triunity”.

Goldsmith/Harvey/Kinsinger

BRITONS WITH BALLS – part III

Thomas Paine

Born Jan 29, 1737, Thetford, Norfolk, England
Died June 8, 1809, New York, N.Y., United States

English writer and political pamphleteer whose "Common Sense" and "Crisis" papers were important influences on the American Revolution, Thomas Paine was until recently one of the unsung heroes of the free world. Other works that contributed to his reputation as one of the greatest political propagandists in history were Rights of Man, a defence of the French Revolution and of republican principles; and The Age of Reason, an exposition of the place of religion in society.

Paine was born of a Quaker father and an Anglican mother in England. His formal education was meagre, just enough to enable him to master reading, writing, and arithmetic. At 13 he began work with his father as a corset maker and then tried various other occupations unsuccessfully, finally becoming an officer of the excise. His duties were to hunt for smugglers and collect the excise taxes on liquor and tobacco. The pay was insufficient to cover living costs, but he used part of his earnings to purchase books and scientific apparatus.

Paine's life in England was marked by repeated failures. He had two brief marriages. He was unsuccessful or unhappy in every job he tried. He was dismissed from the excise office after he published a strong argument in 1772 for a raise in pay as the only way to end corruption in the service. Just when his situation appeared hopeless, he met Benjamin Franklin in London, who advised him to seek his fortune in America and gave him letters of introduction.

Paine arrived in Philadelphia on Nov 30, 1774. His first regular employment was helping to edit the Pennsylvania Magazine. In addition Paine published numerous articles and some poetry, anonymously or under pseudonyms. One such article was "African Slavery in America," a scathing denunciation of the African slave trade, which he signed "Justice and Humanity."

Paine had arrived in America when the conflict between the colonists and England was reaching its height. After blood was spilled at the Battle of Lexington and Concord, April 19, 1775, Paine argued that the cause of America should not be just a revolt against taxation but a demand for independence. He put this idea into "Common Sense," which came off the press on Jan 10, 1776. The 50-page pamphlet sold more than 500,000 copies within a few months. More than any other single publication, "Common Sense" paved the way for the Declaration of Independence, unanimously ratified July 4, 1776.

During the war that followed, Paine served as volunteer aide-de-camp to General Nathanael Greene. His great contribution to the colonists’ cause was the 16 "Crisis" papers issued between 1776 and 1783, each one signed "Common Sense." "The American Crisis. Number I," published on Dec 19, 1776, when George Washington's army was on the verge of disintegration, opened with the flaming words: "These are the times that try men's souls." Washington ordered the pamphlet read to all the troops at Valley Forge.

In 1777 Congress appointed Paine secretary to the Committee for Foreign Affairs. He held the post until early in 1779, when he became involved in a controversy with Silas Deane, a member of the Continental Congress, whom Paine accused of seeking to profit personally from French aid to the United States. But in revealing Deane's machinations, Paine was forced to quote from secret documents to which he had access as secretary of the Committee for Foreign Affairs. As a result, despite the truth of his accusations, he was forced to resign his post.

Paine's desperate need of employment was relieved when he was appointed clerk of the General Assembly of Pennsylvania on Nov 2, 1779. In this capacity he had frequent opportunity to observe that American troops were at the end of their patience because of lack of pay and scarcity of supplies. Paine took $500 from his salary and started a subscription for the relief of the soldiers. In 1781, pursuing the same goal, he accompanied John Laurens to France. The money, clothing, and ammunition they brought back with them were important to the final success of the Revolution. Paine also appealed to the separate states to cooperate for the well-being of the entire ‘nation’. In "Public Good" (1780) he included a call for a national convention to remedy the ineffectual Articles of Confederation and establish a strong central government under "a continental constitution."

At the end of the American Revolution, Paine again found himself poverty-stricken. His patriotic writings had sold by the hundreds of thousands, but he had refused to accept any profits in order that cheap editions might be widely circulated. In a petition to Congress endorsed by Washington, he pleaded for financial assistance. It was buried by Paine's opponents in Congress, but Pennsylvania gave him £500 and New York a farm in New Rochelle. Here Paine devoted his time to inventions, concentrating on an iron bridge without piers and a smokeless candle.

In April 1787 Paine left for Europe to promote his plan to build a single-arch bridge across the wide Schuylkill River near Philadelphia. But in England he was soon diverted from his engineering project. In December 1789 he published anonymously a warning against the attempt of Prime Minister William Pitt to involve England in a war with France over Holland, reminding the British people that war had "but one thing certain and that is increase of taxes." But it was the French Revolution that now filled Paine's thoughts. He was enraged by Edmund Burke's attack on the uprising of the French people in his Reflections on the Revolution in France, and, though Paine admired Burke's stand in favour of the American Revolution, he rushed into print with his celebrated answer, Rights of Man (March 13, 1791). The book immediately created a sensation. At least eight editions were published in 1791, and the work was quickly reprinted in the United States, where it was widely distributed by the Jeffersonian societies. When Burke replied, Paine came back with Rights of Man, Part II, published on Feb. 17, 1792.

What began as a defence of the French Revolution evolved into an analysis of the basic reasons for discontent in European society and a remedy for the evils of arbitrary government, poverty, illiteracy, unemployment, and war. Paine spoke out effectively in favour of republicanism as against monarchy and went on to outline a plan for popular education, relief of the poor, pensions for aged people, and public works for the unemployed, all to be financed by the levying of a progressive income tax. To the ruling class Paine's proposals spelled "bloody revolution," and the government ordered the book banned and the publisher jailed. Paine himself was indicted for treason, and an order went out for his arrest. But he was en route to France, having been elected to a seat in the National Convention, before the order for his arrest could be delivered. Paine was tried in absentia, found guilty of seditious libel, and declared an outlaw, and Rights of Man was ordered permanently suppressed.

In France Paine hailed the abolition of the monarchy but deplored the terror against the royalists and fought unsuccessfully to save the life of King Louis XVI, favouring banishment rather than execution. He was to pay for his efforts to save the King's life when the radicals under Robespierre took power. Paine was imprisoned from Dec 28, 1793, to Nov. 4, 1794, when, with the fall of Robespierre, he was released and, though seriously ill, readmitted to the National Convention.

While in prison, the first part of Paine's Age of Reason was published (1794), and it was followed by Part II after his release (1796). Although Paine made it clear that he believed in a Supreme Being and as a deist opposed only organized religion, the work won him a reputation as an atheist among the orthodox. The publication of his last great pamphlet, "Agrarian Justice" (1797), with its attack on inequalities in property ownership, added to his many enemies in establishment circles.

Paine remained in France until Sept 1, 1802, when he sailed for the United States. He quickly discovered that his services to the country had been all but forgotten and that he was widely regarded only as the world's greatest infidel. Despite his poverty and his physical condition, worsened by occasional drunkenness, Paine continued his attacks on privilege and religious superstitions. He died in New York City in 1809 and was buried in New Rochelle on the farm given to him by the state of New York as a reward for his Revolutionary writings. Ten years later, William Cobbett, the political journalist, exhumed the bones and took them to England, where he hoped to give Paine a funeral worthy of his great contributions to humanity. But the plan misfired, and the bones were lost, never to be recovered.

At Paine's death most US newspapers reprinted the obituary notice from the New York Citizen, which read in part: "He had lived long, did some good and much harm." This remained the verdict of history for more than a century following his death, but in recent years the tide has turned - on Jan 30, 1937, The Times of London referred to him as "the English Voltaire," and on May 18, 1952, Paine's bust was placed in the New York University Hall of Fame.

”Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.”

”Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.”

DANIEL2: I'm getting pretty tired of trying to proove the existence of God to you, so I'll just stop now and let Chris take the ball. In my experience, people like yourself who do not wish to believe in something can reject any ammount of seemingly incontrovertable evidence simply so you do not have to believe it.

Chris: Good luck. I, at least, know you are correct.

As for me I don't have too much of a problem meeting women, in fact I've already been married to my high school sweetheart until she turned to the Dark Side of the Force. The result of that union was two beautiful children. The problem is finding a woman who can accept the fact a man's kids are just as important as she, if not more. My last girlfriend couldn't accept that so I ended it a little over a year ago.

True I do not keep a large circle of friends but that is to my own liking. I have a few I prefer to socialize with and that is my choice.

I've been out on many dates but the women in this area leave alot to be desired at times. True I am shy when it comes to women and may be hesitant to approach them but I still manage to work my way around.

I do not mention to a woman I like film scores until the relationship is going somewhere, although having Titanic does come in handy. My ex-wife was fond of several of my scores. Many times I would come home from work to find her blasting Elfman's Batman over the speakers. If a woman asks me my music tastes I tell her I like; AC/DC, U2, The Police, Van Halen, Aerosmith, etc. etc. I do hold a full time job, but alas paying child support leaves me a little on the short side at times, for recreational purposes that is.

No Daniel I did not take your post seriously but I thought I would show you that I'm not in that dire need as you seem to think.

I’d love to believe in God, and if you or anyone else were able to provide evidence of his existence I would not only take it seriously, I would rejoice.

As it is, I do believe. I believe in mankind’s ability to shape his own destiny, and whilst Western Civilization has torchbearers of enlightenment such as Bill Clinton leading the way, mankind’s further development and sophistication is assured.

As for Bill Clinton, the man is a spineless idiot without morals. He may be carrying a torch, but only because he's in the mob with the rest of the townsfolk.

your defense of Clinton's private life is reprehensible.

As a teacher, I would have gotten FIRED from my job and given a nice stain, so to speak, on my academic record if I had done anything REMOTELY close to Bill Clinton's behavior. This is not jealousy speaking. This is the fact that people like Clinton continue to
get away with behaviours that get most people fired from their jobs. and thrown in jail, too, if they commit perjury, and Mr Clinton admitted to having done.

Clinton is no torchbearer of enlightenment.
He set back the women's movement decades.
He idolizes women and fauns over them like they are objects for one thing: sex.

would you care to explain to me how that is ENLIGHTENED?

The world is the way it is today becuase of people like Clinton, who espouse lofty goals, yet do nothing to achieve those goals, but rather play tobacconist with their interns.

It is called ETHICS, Mr 2.
Your 68 years on this planet indeed have been for naught if you don't know the difference between right and wrong by now.

People do not hold dear to their hearts the valued, tried and true institutions that make people great. Marriage for one.
From a sexual standpoint, people have illegitimate children at an alarming rate, and make their lives, and everyone else's around them, VERY hard.
Adultery and consequent divorce shatters lives at every turn.

and dare I remind you:

"It depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is."

bravissimo! what a grand legacy.

Clinton is the result of poeple who wish to not have any morals in their daily lives.
A child of the 60s. People are now realizing what a buffoon Klintun was.
People realize that you havre to instill values that encourage tolerance, values that encourage knowledge of the difference between right and wrong. Knowledge of what makes a people great.

whan you speak of his being in England during the 60s, people had a legitimate complaint against his campaign. A man that fought to overturn the Constitution; a man that BURNED THE FLAG of this nation, was running for President. That is a scary proposition. Thank GOD it didn't happen. Although, he tried, and failed. just like everything he tried. He failed. Clinton was a miserable failure at everything, from public to private life.
He couldn't get his universal health care. he couldn't get this mideast peace agreement hammered out.

The man showed no dignity and respect for the Office, when he kept hanging around Andrews AFB for an interminable length of time, trying to keep Bush out of the spotlight. The man is sickening in every respect. A woman just served 18 months in jail for something HE did.

Your seeming devotion is laughable, and indicative not of enlightenment, but of sheer, voluntary ignorance.

Enlightened people consider EVERYTHING, and gather knowledge about EVERYTHING, and make their choices based upon what they know and/ or infer.

Just as you reject God, you reject decency, law, morality and ethics (not surprisingly conclusive of a rejection of God).

that is not enlightenment. that's cherry -picking what you feel concurs with your own belief system, and calling it enlightenment.

Again, I feel I must point out that GW Bush has appointed a Cabinet that speaks to the racial diversity of this nation. That in and of itself is MORE than Clinton ever achieved, from an idealistic point of view.

but hey. it's your choice.

You've been wildly misled and ill-informed.

"I look forward to receiving tape recordings of your conversations with Jehovah, or similarly tangible evidence of the Creator’s existence."

That's a very interesting statement. My bet is that even if such tape recordings DID exist, you would not believe.

You have caused me to recall several of the many conversations that I had with my grandfathers, Orville Keiter and Lloyd Kinsinger. The loving thoughts that they shared with me, the guidance that they provided, are all still alive in me, and I recall it all as if it happened earlier today.
It's too late now for me to make any tape recordings of their voices, and because I do not have that tangible evidence, I suppose that they didn't exist after all.

Right, Daniel2?

NP: The Lion Of Judah Dave Bell

Although Clinton has proved himself to be one of the most popular US presidents of recent times, I am the first to admit that he does have his detractors, such as yourself.

However, what I fail to comprehend is your apparent attitude that modern society is somehow in ‘moral decline’. The fact of the matter is, contemporary western societies have attained unprecedented levels of tolerance, broadmindedness, fairness and sophistication. For those of us who are lucky enough to live in the Western World of today, life has never been so easy, life has never been so fair, life has never been so affluent, life has never been so free, and life has never been so safe.

I say this having experienced WWII and the suffering and deprivation it caused. I say this as someone who was born in 1932, and grew up in an English society based on the iniquities of the class system. I say this as someone who often went to bed hungry and cold during the ‘30s and ‘40s, just like the majority of the working class British people – those were the ‘scrag-end’ and ‘beef dripping’ days – I used to queue up for hours for my mom at the local butcher, just for a bit of dripping or a scrag-end of lamb. This is to say nothing of the bombs that were falling around us in London, killing and maiming friends, neighbours and family.

Don’t kid yourself that life was better in those days. Right up to the early ‘60s life was far tougher than it is today. My time working as a garbage collector in 1950s Grimsby now seems like another lifetime, it’s almost as if I dreamt it. Back then, people were fighting to feed themselves. People weren’t as nice and polite as they are today, the courtesies that we take for granted today were alien to most of the British people forty years ago. Yes, people did pull together during wartime, as any nation of proud citizens would when its coasts and borders were threatened by an army of Nazi invaders. But after the war, the euphoria of victory evaporated as swiftly as the morning mist, even Winston Churchill was ousted from power with unholy haste, because people then had to endure the hardships of the post-war austerity measures (rationing) that was even harsher than during wartime itself. These austerity measures lasted well into the 1950s, people couldn’t eat properly and they couldn’t heat their homes adequately. It was during this period that Britain was virtually bankrupted, the British Empire began to crumble, and Britain’s infrastructure became fragmented and fractured. Not only that, the harsh winter of ’47 that saw snowdrifts piled up to the rooftops led to further deaths and suffering on a large scale. But, worst of all, as with the Great War, Britain had lost the cream of its manhood in the skies and on the battlefields of Europe during WWII.

Yes, ‘50s Grimsby was a tough place to live, as was anywhere in the British Isles. Crime was rife, far higher than it is today, people were too busy trying to feed and clothe themselves to engage in the niceties that we extend to our friends, neighbours and acquaintances today. Bar-room brawls, broken bottle attacks, and drug-use were common occurrences. Along with the saloon, cinema offered an escape from the drudgery of everyday life.

Many people talk of returning to ‘Victorian Values’ – that set of moral principles that came about during Queen Victoria’s reign from 1837 through 1901. What a frightening prospect that would be! Back then things were even worse for the majority of the people than it was during the ‘30s, ‘40s, and ‘50s. During Victorian times, only a tiny minority of people lived in luxury, you know, like you see in all those Hollywood movies, such as DR JEKYLL AND MR HYDE and PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, whilst the majority lived in squalor, as you see in many of the Dickensian filmizations. And it was the same in America.

JJH, you talk about a moral decline today, well, that’s absolute nonsense. Just one hundred years ago child prostitution was legal, women were denied the vote, people were locked up for engaging in homosexual activity, brothels and opium dens littered the alleyways of London, Bristol and Liverpool, and children as young as five were made to work 12-hour days down the pit.

JJH, you are under the illusion that today’s society is in a moral decline. You see, the fact is, today’s press has far greater freedom than it has ever done, government is far more moderate and is far more open about its actions and policies than ever, and society as a whole is now far more broadminded and tolerant than it has ever been. Therefore, we actually get to hear about the bad things that go on in government and in society as a whole. Yes, there is still much to be done to improve the lot of mankind, but we are very much moving in the right direction.

You see, up until recent years, society was far more prudish and blinkered, people used to find sex and sexual matters embarrassing to talk about, people used to be sexually ‘hung-up’. Because of this, people and society used to brush embarrassing sexual matters under the carpet, they used to turn a blind eye, they used to pretend that the people in their street were all honest God-fearing citizens. However, behind this façade of ‘decency’, child abuse, drug abuse, pimping and other heinous crimes were able to flourish – because they didn’t really exist in the eyes of blinkered society. Thankfully, the cultural revolution during the ‘60s exploded most of society’s childish inhibitions about sex and social behaviour.

You are not alone JJH in seeing past times through rose-tinted spectacles. By past times I mean society as it was 20 years ago, 30, 40, 50, 60, or 100 years ago. For instance, only recently the British tabloid press was full of headlines like ‘Shameful Britain’ and ‘the sorry state of Britain’, as they referred to the huge number of reported incidences of child abuse in Britain’s care homes. The papers talked of Britain’s moral decline just as you JJH talk of a moral decline in contemporary society. They talked about the cases of child abuse as being another example of the moral decline of western civilization.

Such talk is nonsense. Child abuse has been going on in our care homes and amongst our families for all time, it’s not a modern phenomena – it’s just that today’s modern, broadminded and sophisticated society has the courage to face up to reality and accept that paedophiles do live in our streets and paedophiles do work in our carehomes. And because of this, society is now more able to act against paedophiles, and children feel more able to report incidences of abuse they may suffer at home or at school without fear of establishment cover-up or reprisal. You see, many of these recently exposed cases of child abuse in British carehomes spanned decades and can be traced back to the ‘50s, but up until now were covered-up by the establishment. It says something about the sophistication of our modern and enlightened society and establishment that we are finally facing up to and exposing such vile practices.

The same is true with all crimes, be it drug abuse, assault, rape, bullying or whatever. Today’s broadminded society accepts these things exist and therefore can fight such ‘evils’. Education is the key. I’m afraid the days of the innocent child are over. Children must be taught about sex, and children (under 16s) must have access to contraceptives free of charge, and they must be taught about the dangers of drugs – it’s for their own good. Wrapping up our children in cotton wool has failed in the past, it has merely made the child more vulnerable to the attentions of paedophiles, drug-pushers and pimps, and not only that, sex education from a very early age will teach our children how to use contraceptives properly to prevent unwanted pregnancies and venereal disease.

Additionally, today’s politicians, including Bill Clinton, are paragons of virtue compared with those of even the recent past, thanks to the freedoms the press enjoys today and the openness and accountability of modern government. Today’s politicians are more than ever under the spotlight, if they transgress, the press are likely to find out. But, by the same token, people are far more tolerant these days, and far more willing to forgive a politician his little peccadilloes. Indeed, Clinton’s womanizing has actively endeared him to his public – they see him as a fellow human being, a man of the people, with all of those weaknesses that afflict us all. People see Clinton as having red blood flowing through his veins, and they like that.

Great men, such as Bill Clinton need to be able to expend their pent-up energies in many ways, such as through sex. It is only natural that such gifted and highly energized leaders of men are sexually active. Having said that, as I said before, Clinton is a saint compared with most former US Presidents and British Prime Ministers, the difference today is, that thanks to the freedoms that the common man and the press enjoy, we actually get to hear about it.

Take the early-20th century prime minister David Lloyd-George. He had an insatiable sexual appetite, and adjoining his office was a makeshift bedroom which he would use to bed his women, sometimes three at a time (well, one after the other of course), at various times during the day. These women were a mixture of prostitutes, single women and even the wives of his cabinet colleagues. The great Victorian prime minister William Gladstone was another man with an insatiable appetite for sex, even in his 70s. He would pound the seediest streets of London in search of prostitutes and was a regular frequenter of brothels – he had a particular bent for flagellation. But, all of this was mainly covered up whilst they were in office.

So JJH, please bear in mind that today’s politicians are far less corrupt than most of their predecessors. Having said that, a politician is naturally corrupt to some extent, it’s just a matter of firstly coming to terms with that fact, and then making sure that the politician is not allowed too much freedom for corruption – the free press and the electoral system see to the latter. As far as I’m concerned, it’s okay for a politician to be corrupt, just so long as he doesn’t go too far – murder, for instance.

Marriage, as an institution, is dying, but this is not indicative of a society in moral decay, the institution of marriage is merely becoming a cumbersome, outmoded and anachronistic impediment to the function of a modern and enlightened society. Indeed, many psychologists now believe that the traditional family unit can have a detrimental effect on the development of the child, making the child too heavily reliant on parental support and guidance. The family unit can also inhibit the full flowering of a teenager’s sexuality. A single parent will often encourage independence and strength of character – this is not to say a dual-parental family unit is necessarily a bad thing, but the rigid and formal boundaries of marriage should not necessarily be encouraged in a future society based on broad-mindedness and enlightenment.

Freedom of sexual expression is as fundamental to mankind’s well-being as is the air we breathe.

BRITONS WITH BALLS – Part IV

Captain John Smith

Born Jan 6, 1580, Willoughby, Lincolnshire, England
Died June 1631, London, England

Virginia, nicknamed the Old Dominion for its loyalty to the exiled Charles II of England during the period of Cromwell’s English Republic, has the longest continuous histories of all of the American states, dating from the settlement of Jamestown (named for James I of England) in 1607 by the celebrated Englishman Captain John Smith. Virginia was named for Elizabeth I of England, the ‘Virgin Queen’, and under its original charter was granted most of the lands west of the Atlantic seaboard settlements, to the Mississippi River and beyond. The contributions of such British-Virginians as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison were crucial in the formation of the United States independent of mother England, and in the early decades following independence the state was known as the Birthplace of Presidents.

Virginia gave its support to the Confederacy during the Civil War, many areas of the state retain the tinge of conservatism developed over centuries of British aristocratic traditions that made the term "a Virginia gentleman" synonymous with gentility and refinement.

The purposes of the English colonists, led by Captain John Smith, when they landed at present-day Jamestown in May 1607 were not only to colonize but also to Christianize, and most importantly to guard against further French and Spanish colonization in British America. Hunger, poor shelter, Indian hostility, and rampant disease plagued the early years, but, while the colony tottered constantly on the brink of dissolution, a tobacco industry was begun by John Rolfe and a representative assembly was convened. In 1624 Virginia became Great Britain's first royal colony in North America, and in the following years new settlements were made and local administrative systems were devised.

The governorship of the Englishman Sir William Berkeley that began in 1642 marked the solidification of the colony. The many anti-Cromwell British Royalists who fled to Virginia after England became a republic in 1649 added an important element to the population, much of which consisted of English colonists and their black servants. During the early 18th century, a growing desire for self-government within the British Empire spread throughout British Virginia - although England attempted to govern fairly, it did not allow the inhabitants of its American colonies the full rights of those Englishmen that resided in mother England itself.

This was a period of expansion as well as of internal strengthening. Settlers from the Tidewater region spilled over into the Piedmont, across the Blue Ridge, and, by the 1740s, into the Ohio country beyond, there clashing with the French colonial designs. Following England's prohibition of westward expansion in 1763 as part of the conditions for peace with France at the end of the Fourth French and Indian War, most of the revolutionary activity that took place amongst the British colonies took place in Virginia. On the eve of going to war with the mother country, Virginia had more than 120,000 residents, many of them persons of considerable sophistication and learning, and a stable, if narrowly based, economy.

Virginians know that the Englishman, Captain John Smith, was one of the first American heroes, but what many people may not know is that Smith's adventures started even before founding the first permanent English colony in North America almost four hundred years ago.

Born in 1580 in Willoughby, England, John Smith spent several years fighting for the British all over Europe before returning to England in the winter of 1604-05. Here begins Captain John Smith's American adventures. Smith became actively involved with plans to colonize Virginia for profit by the Virginia Company, which had been granted a charter from King James I of England. After setting sail on December 20, 1606, this famous expedition finally reached Virginia in April 1607 after enduring a lengthy voyage of over four months in three tiny ships. When the sealed box that listed the names of the seven council members who were to govern the colony was opened, Smith's name was on the list. On May 13, 1607 the settlers landed at Jamestown ready to begin the task of surviving in a new environment.

The harsh winter, lack of fresh water, and the spread of disease made life in Jamestown difficult for the settlers. Attacks by the native Algonquian Indians made life almost impossible. The Indians, hoping that the settlers would give up and leave, raided their camps, stealing pistols, gunpowder, and other necessary supplies. John Smith became leader of the colonists and did his best to fight off the Indians.
In December 1607, he and some companions were ambushed by Indian deer hunters. After killing the other Englishmen with him, the Indians carried Smith back to their powerful chief, Powhatan, to decide his fate. Powhatan was apparently greatly impressed by Smith's self-confidence as well as such mystical instruments as an ivory and glass pocket compass he carried with him. Smith was questioned about his colony and then made to take part in some sort of ritual or trial, after which, in keeping with an Indian custom, he was made a subordinate chief in the tribe. Powhatan's 11 year old daughter took part in the ceremony in some way. Smith was constantly unsure of his fate, and he was convinced afterward that Pocahontas had saved his life. Smith was released in friendship after about four weeks of captivity and returned to Jamestown, guided by Indians. Having received new orders from London, Smith left Jamestown to explore and map the Chesapeake Bay region and search for badly needed food supplies. Later, Smith was eventually elected president of the local council in September 1608. He instituted a policy of rigid discipline, strengthened defences, and encouraged farming. Because of his strong leadership, the settlement survived and grew during the next year. Unfortunately, Smith was accidentally injured by a gunpowder burn and had to return to England for treatment in October 1609, never to return to Virginia again.

You said – ”My bet is that even if such tape recordings DID exist, you would not believe.”

I would certainly insist on having the tape recordings authenticated at Cody Gate Research Laboratories in Buckinghamshire, England before even considering the possibility that the voice heard on the tape was God’s, though additional video evidence maybe more persuasive, assuming I didn’t recognize the actor playing the part of Jehovah.

So Chris, if you are looking to provide audio/visual evidence of God’s existence, you should hire someone who actually looks and sounds like the accepted WASP image of God….Donald Sinden springs to mind, or perhaps Charlton Heston – though, if Henry Fonda was still alive, I’d suggest him, but he’d probably be too busy playing an American president of some description.

I cannot dispute the fact that your grandfathers once existed, simply because you exist….or do you?

Perhaps you’re my very own ‘Harvey’……

...let's get this thread to #2000!

Myles Standish

Born 1584, Lancashire, England
Died Oct 3, 1656, Duxbury, Massachusetts

English colonist and military leader of the Massachusetts’ Plymouth colony.

Standish sailed to British America on the Mayflower in 1620, serving as their military leader when they established Plymouth in New England. He learned the language of the local Indians and led several guerrilla expeditions against hostile tribes. In 1627 he was a leader of the group in the colony that bought out the London investors. In 1628 Standish helped to break up the colony of Thomas Morton at nearby Merry Mount when it proved too unpuritanical to suit Plymouth. He also served as assistant governor and as treasurer of the Plymouth colony (1644-49). He moved to Duxbury in 1631 and remained there until his death.

Myles Standish started his military career as a drummer, and eventually worked his way up and into the Low Countries (Holland), where English troops under Heratio Vere had been stationed to help the Dutch in their war with Spain.

Captain Standish lead most of the first exploring missions into the wintry surroundings at Cape Cod looking for a place to settle. He was elected military captain, and organized the Pilgrims defenses against the Indians, as well as protect the Colony from the French, Spanish, and Dutch. In 1622 he led an expedition to save the remaining members of the Wessagusett Colony and killed several hundred Indians who had led the plot to kill all the Englishmen at that Colony.

...Actually, if I could get my fridge, microwave, and PC in my bathroom, I might never leave...

Actually...

"I cannot dispute the fact that your grandfathers once existed, simply because you exist…or do you?

Perhaps you’re my very own ‘Harvey’……"

Perhaps I am indeed.

What EVIDENCE do you have to the contrary, I ask?

Please tell me, Mr. Cunningham...what evidence do you have that I EXIST?

HERE IS WHAT YOU HAVE SAID:

"I cannot dispute the fact that your grandfathers once existed, simply because you exist..."

DO I EXIST?

"So Chris, if you are looking to provide audio/visual evidence of God’s existence, you should hire someone who actually looks and sounds like the accepted WASP image of God….Donald Sinden springs to mind, or perhaps Charlton Heston – though, if Henry Fonda was still alive, I’d suggest him..."

Oh...WOULD YOU??? I have a really HOT NEWS FLASH for you, Danny Baby...

JESUS IS A JEW! Remember the title that his fellow men gave to Him? "KING OF THE JEWS"???

Danny baby...you need to do some homework.

Marian, don't waste your energy on the possible "meaning" of "Fish Chip".
Breaded and deep-fried haddock, served with deep-fried potato slices (chips), is a meal routinely served at restaurants all around the globe.
By evoking this heartwarming culinary delight, PeterK obviously wants us all to know that he is as common, friendly and accessible as a plate of Fish & Chips...EVERY FRIDAY!

During the remaining six weekdays...it's anybody's guess.

If I'm wrong about my hypothesis, Marian, you can be certain that Peter will swoop in quite directly to CORRECT ME!