But I do disagree with nearly everything that you wrote, and what follows is simply what I would say for an audience to hear in this debate.

First off, our differences regarding the appropriateness of the sound of Goldsmith's music during the past decade and perhaps during his entire career demonstrates my fundamental point.

When discussing music, no matter how much listening experience or degrees in musicology one has, each person's impression of music is opinion. It's very clear that the differences in opinion between you and many others here about the merits of Goldsmith's music cannot be negotiated. I may not understand what bothers you about Goldsmith's music (especially of late), but that is what contributes to the clashing of feelings.

But I have tried to determine a methodical way for scoring a film. This takes the "Oh, it sounds good" criticism and throws it out the window for the most part. (Obviously, if a scene requires horrific music, the music must adequately convey this emotion to the audience, etc.) My theory ended up being about 99.9% identical to Mr. Goldsmith's.

Goldsmith explains:

[I see my score] "as a total piece and not just a series of sequences. The score is a piece of music. Everything is developed from one piece of material. The most important thing to me is that everything develops out of the initial organic material."

"If the music has no form, no foundation--no basis from where it came--then why is it there in the first place?"

"This is also one of the problems a composer faces because many producers and directors don't even know why the music is in there in the first place themselves."

I agree with you, Daniel, that the foremost task of a film composer is to supplement the production with music when needed to convey the tone of a story to an audience.

BUT, this is a very pedestrian request upon the film composer, and any film composer can write, like Goldsmith implies, a bunch of emotion cues, to do this.

But, Goldsmith's logic about film scores is absolutely SOUND. No question. In a linear film, a set of characters are introduced and a plot with them, and then a story takes place. Film music should be reflective of this.

So Goldsmith takes this several steps further, as well as his endless list of successors and students. It's what makes Goldsmith film scoring's GREAT and Max Steiner sub-par.

Take CHINATOWN, where Goldsmith's music plays a vital part in the plot. It conveys the tone of the film and its emotions to the viewer, but the thematic continuity makes the story MORE comprehendible, not less. The same goes for many, many other scores done in Goldsmithian fashion.

Now quick imagine CHINATOWN without the Master's hand. What would have been the result? Billy Wilder's original version of THE LOST WEEKEND?

It seems like you imply that somehow thematic continuity and emotional resonance/appropriateness contradict each other. Do you contradict yourself? Horner with BRAVEHEART and MASK OF ZORRO, RANSOM and THE MAN WITHOUT A FACE (a great Horner score if I must say)?

Horner TAKES Goldsmith's style. He has EMULATED him entirely. I am not criticizing Horner for this. IT IS THE MOST EXCEPTIONAL ASPECT OF HIS COMPOSITIONAL PERSONALITY. The reason I admire David Newman so much is because, of his scores that I've heard, he has shown an understanding of Goldsmith's logic.

I must address your point about actors and repetitive film music from film to different film. Actors appear in different films in different characters. Tommy Lee Jones, Jeff Goldblum, and Jack Nicholson might not...but this is because of their strengths playing a similarly styled character.

NEVERTHELESS, each character has a different name, different circumstances. I see your point in more of the tone of the music, not the replication of music to other scores. Frankly I don't mind it that much, but I don't advocate it either. I mean, ROCKETEER just ****es me off. It's like Horner didn't bother to replace half of the temp track!!!

I see your point in terms of orchestral similarity. Brass usually implies heroism or boldness, strings a light mood or romance. In this way, there is a stock to film music. But Jack Nicholson doesn't appear as J.J. Gittes in AS GOOD AS IT GETS. The music, strictly observed, should be different from film to film. Each film deserves its own soundscape because each film outside of a series is an island. An actor will bring his personality and experience to every role, but he will leave a character giving him a uniqueness. A composer should approach each project in the same way. BASIC INSTINCT and THE HAUNTING may sound to be obviously composed by Goldsmith, but these two scores are each unique.

Like Goldsmith and the Alex North said, the classical music in 2001 distracts from the film, not helps. The music conveys images and thoughts about Vienna, not outer space in the future. I think about STAR TREK II or ALIENS when I inevitably hear a new Horner score. That's, um, NOT GOOD.

A film's music does need to convey the film's tone to an audience, but, really must tell a film's story. The music should belong to a film and the cues should be related to each other.

I see, again, no difference at all between Goldsmith and Horner, save for Horner's compositional shortcomings. Horner's music is just as obvious as Goldsmith's if not more. This is not a bad thing, and I'm not sure why you paint it as being so, especiallu since an audience shouldn't have to ponder the music's meaning like it would in FORBIDDEN PLANET. The music must be accessible. Bar none. If the music is contemporarily structured, like in HOLLOW MAN, it must be so to fit an audience's reaction to a film. (The brutal sound of the orchestra conveys a brutal, horrific tone to an audience.)

Hans Zimmer's score to MI:2 was VERY Goldsmithian. Frankly, it's the best Zimmer score I've heard. The album is less than exceptional, but as we would both say, Daniel, it's the score in the film that counts.

Thanks again for stating your opinions with such clarity and eloquence, I having nothing but respect for your stance.

However, your reference to Max Steiner as ‘sub-par’ is rather surprising. To my mind, Steiner is not only the greatest of all film composers because of his pioneering of the modern film-score, but also because of the consistent excellence that characterized his whole career. His intelligent approach to scoring, the quality of his thematic material, the appropriate nature of his music and even the projects to which he was attached, all contributed to one of the most successful individual careers in the history of cinema. Just last night I had the pleasure of seeing yet another Steiner-scored movie for the first time – THE DARK AT THE TOP OF THE STAIRS. Now, I’ve been watching movies for many decades, and yet there are still a number of Steiner-scored movies that I am yet to see – it’s quite comforting to know that there are Steiner films out there that I am yet to see.

THE DARK AT THE TOP OF THE STAIRS gave Steiner the opportunity to create a score based firmly on your film-scoring theory Bulldog.

In it, he created a memorable main theme, and each subsequent chunk of dramatic score was connected to the main thematic material. The theme’s character was subtly adjusted, fashioned and moulded to fit the scene and the character in hand. The harmonica was introduced for one of the main characters, and this appropriate musical device became even more evocative and important after that character’s death.

I have written elsewhere at this board of my high regard for Max Steiner, and also offer a comparison between Steiner and Goldsmith at my latest entry at FSM.

As far as Goldsmith’s recent output is concerned, we obviously are diametrically opposed in our views. But, at least as far as I am concerned, this discussion has helped me to understand and respect your perspective.

Someone said at another thread that Media Ventures have a more ‘popular’ or ‘contemporary’ sound because they’ve got a lots of synthesizers and keyboards to play with at the MV-lab. I’ve never heard such naïve drivel in my life, and whoever said it is deluding himself. I mean, how many keyboards and samples were used in the wittily orchestral AS GOOD AS IT GETS? The Media Ventures stable is crammed with skilled and accomplished composers well versed in all aspects of music – including classical. And, they’re always willing to extend their range (HAL 2000 are you listenting?). The world of music and cinema today is keen to embrace all aspects of culture, and all styles of music, something that Media Ventures is championing.

You see, a lot of people still take the view that broadly speaking Goldsmith is classical, and Zimmer is pop, so Goldsmith is better because he’s classical.

Now, I don’t believe in pigeon-holing anything or anyone….that is, except Jerry Goldsmith. He is very much rooted in the out-moded use of orchestra, more so than any other current film composer in my opinion, whilst Media Ventures not only embraces the sensibilities of the world of popular music, but also the world of classical music, and all other relevant and emerging styles of music.

Your point about Zimmer’s MI2 incorporating elements of Goldsmith’s style is a perfect example of how many current film composers have benefited from Goldsmith’s contribution to the art of composing for film, whilst Goldsmith himself continues to flounder in obscurity after decades of unrequited effort.

In general, and I don't mean to be crass if I sound that way, Steiner's approach to film music was inappropriate. (I have not seen the film you mentioned, but I'm sure that much like Williams has written a few dramatically appropriate scores, so too has Steiner--I just had not seen it.)

I don't like leitmotif except in very few cases (like THE 'BURBS--obviously the approach of parody and humor). I've explained why I like film music the way that I do, so I won't waste time and space here discussing my disapproval of leitmotif, aside from the fact that I think it is inherently confused in film to an overwhelming degree. (Leitmotif was really meant for opera--where a greater and more extensive musical portrait could be created and needed to be created.)

The Media Ventures stable is crammed with skilled and accomplished composers well versed in all aspects of music – including classical. And, they’re always willing to extend their range (HAL 2000 are you listenting?).

There are so many examples of Media Venture’s wit and accomplishment. Here, I concentrate on just one movie.

This is a posting I made at the ‘Just Movies’ section during May of this year. It is a perfect illustration of why I regard The Zimmer School so highly.

May 29th 2000

ANTZ (1998) movie *** score ****1/2

Amiable, occasionally amusing, unpretentious, brilliantly animated, well-voiced and superbly scored tale of a humble (and neurotic) worker-ant (voiced by Woody ‘bundle of neuroses’ Allen) who desires to break free from the conformity of life within the colony. In the process, Woody becomes enmeshed in colony politics, most notably the despotic machinations of General Mandible….a brilliant creation, voiced by Gene Hackman.

Not quite as clever, witty and involving as TOY STORY, but a fine entertainment nevertheless. The script’s not quite as good as it might have been….in-jokes and rather self-conscious references to other movies are all very well….but the dialogue really could have been sharpened up a little.
Many have described ANTZ as one of those movies that appeals to all ages….from kids to octogenarians….and to a certain degree it does appeal to a very broad audience. However, in many ways ANTZ wasn’t quite CLEVER enough to FULLY entertain the kids….there was probably more for the ‘grown-up’ audience who aren’t necessarily going to be clamouring for toilet-humour or cruel-comic-violence like the children, and the adult audience is also more likely to be willing to give the movie more of a chance, and forgive any of the movies’ lulls, moments of dubious quality, or shortcomings, than the more demanding child audience….and yet there wasn’t really enough subtle humour or complex plot development to FULLY entertain the adult audience either….so ANTZ, to some extent, fell between two stools….a good movie, but coming nowhere near fulfilling its possible potential. In fact, the grandkids (aged seven to twelve) thought the movie was OKAY, but nothing more. You know what children are like…..they are the most demanding of audiences, and the harshest of critics. Perhaps if the filmmakers had gone for a more energetic pace, and an earthier and cruder script, the kids may have been ‘hooked’….as it was, the movie was a little too basic, and paradoxically, TOO CHILDISH to keep their full attention for the duration of the movie. Overall, the movie was a little too sanitized….it was TOO harmless to get the kids giggling. More comic-violence and a few more gags like when the bugs were eating crap was what the kids wanted…..a bit more ‘SOUTH PARK’, SCREAM or HELLRAISER humour….I could see the kids faces as they were watching the movie…..they were longing for Mr Hanky, Pinhead or a ‘screaming-skull mask’ to turn up.

Many have asked what I mean exactly when I talk about a score successfully incorporating CMS (contemporary musical sensibilities). Media Ventures’ score to ANTZ is one of the best SINGLE examples of a successfully CMS score that I have come across…..it was brilliant. Powell, Gregson-Williams and other MV composers did a marvellous job of incorporating all those CMS attributes that I have often talked about. Once again the ‘Zimmer School’ has combined and created a wholly successful film score that includes elements of many disparate styles and yet still maintains a robust framework…a magnificent blending of traditional and contemporary musical styles…..with dense orchestration and maximum orchestral fluidity…the brass and acoustic percussion didn’t at any time overwhelm the rest of the orchestra (a common fault in a non-CMS score)…..an approach that appeals to the majority of the audience. Powell’s FACE/OFF is another great example of a successfully CMS score. Powell is evidently an extremely skilled and versatile composer, a willing exponent of CMS (applying the most appropriate music at the right time), and, based on the evidence of his work thus far, has an exceptional aptitude for film scoring. This is the ‘model’ film composer as we enter the 21st century….and it’s not just the Zimmer School that espouses the virtues of CMS. Virtually every other movie composer, with ONE or two notable exceptions, is embracing the values of CMS to suit their own style of composition. That’s the beauty of CMS….it doesn’t exclude those composers with a particular style or approach (just so long as the composer has knowledge of all major forms of music, including classical, pop and jazz….and is willing to use them, not just from movie to movie, or even scene to scene….but from moment to moment….this may undermine the effectiveness of the music on the album, but that’s not important….the music MUST work for the film first) ….only those composers who are not WILLING to give their movies the most appropriate score based on the nature of the movie and the contemporary musical sensibilities of society as a whole, are not found beneath the CMS umbrella.

Anyway, ANTZ is well worth seeing….but don’t EXPECT to be bowled over.

So, that details just one of the amazing array of movies that the product of Media Ventures accomplishment has graced.

Earlier this year at a GLADIATOR thread I posted this explanation about the Media Ventures ethos.

“I think it is always a pleasant surprise to hear that a film composer of Zimmer’s outstanding ability is willing and able to work with other talented composers on his projects. Often it is the case that a creative talent feels restricted or uneasy about combining with another talent…..and that is fair enough…..everyone is different.

However, during the 90’s, Zimmer’s Media Ventures has blown film scoring convention apart…..part of the MV culture being the pooling of resource and the harmonization of disparate talent. Zimmer and his school of talented composers are pioneering new and unexplored musical terrain whilst maintaining many of the traditional values that makes composing for film an art-form that we all admire. Many of today’s finest and most successful film composers learned their trade at Media Ventures, Mancina for example, and apart from Zimmer himself, many other aspiring and established composers (such as the immensely talented John Powell) continue to be based at the Zimmer stable.

Versatility, depth, and sheer devotion to the musical needs of the movie are the hallmarks of Media Ventures output…..values expounded by its gallery of astute and assiduous film composers past and present. Each movie that is connected with Media Ventures is usually blessed with film scoring excellence…..indeed, every new film score from the Zimmer school, whether it is from Gregson-Williams, Powell, Zimmer, Mancina, Rabin etc, or a combination of these composers, is an event that I eagerly anticipate, such is the quality, diversity and expertly appropriate application of music to movie that these composers provide.
Not only does Zimmer often work with other composers on any single film score, he also often employs multiple orchestrators on his scores, as well as other additional creative talent, such as the conductor. This combination of numerous creative talents has benefited cinema for much of the 90’s…..and long may it continue.

The combination of composers, orchestrators, conductors, arrangers and other technicians….and the frequent application of remarkable choral and solo talent, creates movie scores greater than the sum of its parts…..the epitome of the sophisticated, mature and complete 90’s film score experience. As I have said, this pooling of talent has led to the creation of some of the best scores of the 90’s……and that is quite remarkable during a period of generally exceptional film music and movie quality.

This is taking nothing away from the achievements of Horner, Elfman, Williams and other excellent ‘lone’ composers during the 90’s……..these men too have continued to create marvellous movie scores during a period of rapidly improving standards and increasing sophistication. However, it is my belief that the line-up of creative talent that revolves around a Zimmer score can only BENEFIT his movies.

To me, the benchmark by which film scores today are judged is consistently being raised thanks chiefly to “The Zimmer School…..Purveyors of Excellence”.

To further illustrate my opinion, here is a portion of my 'Goldsmith Chronicles' posting found within the 'Goldsmith’s LAST ORDERS' thread at FSM.

ZIMMER’S DEMOCRACY.

The great thing about the Zimmer School is the fact that numerous creative talents work in harmony. Of course, many fine film composers work alone….and if that is what they prefer, who is to argue? However, it has become apparent over the years that Goldsmith dominates ALL aspects of his scoring assignments. Okay, if that’s what he prefers to do….that’s his choice. To me though, this helps explain exactly why Goldsmith’s music is SO out of touch with today’s society and almost completely lacking in CMS. Zimmer and his co-composers, multiple orchestrators, arrangers and conductors are often pooling their talent….I’m sure this sometimes leads to creative differences…..but that’s fine…..in the end the Media Ventures scores are usually spot-on and adroit. With Goldsmith it appears to be a case of complete domination…..though I’m sure Goldsmith, like any reasonable man, is open to suggestions. I DO actually admire this apparent quality in Goldsmith….this strong-willed determination to be honest with his own compositional sensibilities…..however, I think in the end he is losing out….the movies are losing out….and we, the audience are losing out. Apparently Goldsmith regards his orchestrator quite differently to how Zimmer regards his orchestrators. It strikes me that with a Zimmer, or any MV score, the music is always being checked and double-checked, the chief composer or originator of the thematic material is then blessed with advice from numerous other disparate talents…..thus, the finished product is a combined effort….a pooling of resource…..and therefore is much more likely to succeed as dramatic score AND is much more likely to appeal to society through the skilful application of contemporary musical sensibilities (CMS). Goldsmith however, doesn’t appear to have, or even to welcome, external input. External influences to him may appear hostile…..and I admire him for his artistic honesty…..but I think his film scoring suffers….and suffers horribly. You see, surely someone should have pointed out to Goldsmith, or advised him, that his work on US MARSHALS was so unappealing, or his theme to ANGIE was dismal, or his score to BAD GIRLS was puerile, or his music to FIRST KNIGHT was downright bland, or his work on CITY HALL and LA CONFIDENTIAL was TOO similar to Leonard Bernstein…..or if someone had just said….’hey, Jerry….that’s a great theme for RUDY, let’s see how we can put it to GOOD use’. Maybe someone did say something, maybe he chose to ignore any advice. Whatever, he DID score these pictures, his music wasn’t rejected, he earned his cash and some of these movies actually made money….so who am I to complain? BUT….what might have been?

If Goldsmith was more willing to take on board suggestions, then perhaps his scores to THE PUBLIC EYE and TWO DAYS IN THE VALLEY would not have been rejected. Perhaps Goldsmith, by applying a more broadminded approach to his film scoring, by incorporating more contemporary styles and instrumentation in recent years would have gained a far wider appeal within the film industry, thus, BETTER and certainly more diverse and prestigious projects. You see, I wouldn’t be saying all of this if I didn’t think Goldsmith had the potential to do a lot more with his enormous ability. It just seems to me that Goldsmith has failed to realize a sizeable portion of his potential, probably because of his single-minded nature. What on the one hand is an admirable quality or a great strength…..ie his strong will…..is also his undoing….by preventing him from compromising with ever changing public taste. Hence, the usually cavernous and ever-widening gulf between Goldsmith’s own stylistic preferences and CMS…..a great shame.

So, there you have it HAL2OOO. In monetary terms Media Ventures’ output is a crisp newly-printed fifty pound note, whilst Goldsmith’s flagging career amounts to a faded, crumpled and soon-to-be-extinct greenback.

Now we seem to have come to a ‘gentleman’s agreement’ (for the time being) about what a film score should be, perhaps you will allow me to explain my high regard for Max Steiner. Below is an edited version of a response I made to dantoris a few months ago.

“Early in Steiner’s career came THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME, an excellent early talkie, featuring the ineffable Leslie Banks as the villain, and Max Steiner at his best…..what more could one ask for? In fact, much like Steiner’s work on KING KONG, I see this as one of THE pioneering film scores, helping to define the purpose of the modern film score that continues to this day. Steiner’s THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME does share some similarities with KING KONG….naturally, but overall it is a distinctly different composition with breathtaking action music and authentic ‘tribal music’ providing the atmosphere.

I should add, to me, his score to THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME is just one of a legion of fantastic scores that Steiner wrote during his career. I sometimes find it hard to believe that there was only one Max Steiner, considering the huge number of successful movies he scored….and he ALWAYS seemed to give the absolute maximum of effort.

This one composer alone is reason enough for ME to love movies and film music.

As for the best of Steiner’s other scores, there are SO many, where do I start? To begin with, I will say that ONE of the reasons why I love Steiner’s music is its similarity to Gustav Mahler’s style (my favourite composer). In fact Steiner studied under Mahler in Vienna (his birthplace), before coming to England in the early 1900’s. After about ten years in London, Steiner was ‘discovered’ by Ziegfeld, no less, and the rest is history.

Steiner does have a reputation for creating very sentimental, string-heavy and omnipresent film scores, and because of this, and Steiner’s frequent incorporation of other composers’ song melodies, anthems and themes into his scores, Steiner is perhaps not everyone’s FAVOURITE composer, and some people, novices and scholars alike, regard Steiner only with well-deserved respect, mainly for his acknowledged technical expertise and pioneering of the modern dramatic score, and for the sheer volume of outstanding movies to which he has been attached. Whilst I understand and respect this standpoint, to me, beneath the sweet veneer that coats many of Steiner’s film scores, exists music of enormous power and diversity.

In fact, Steiner’s scores almost always incorporate those elements of composition that I admire so much in Mahler’s work…..the conflicts within the orchestra, one instrument playing against another, the apparently banal melody that suddenly transforms into the most sublime musical statement, the warmth, the nostalgia, the bittersweet….wonderful stuff.

What makes Steiner’s achievements all the more remarkable, is that whilst creating MUSIC of incredible sophistication and depth, he still almost always SCORES his movies to perfection. And, there is so much more to Steiner’s music than the sweet and bittersweet….below I describe what I believe are some of the most outstanding film scores in the history of cinema….only Alfred Newman comes anywhere near Steiner’s consistent level of brilliance….in my opinion. This is not to say that all other film composers are inferior, my post above indicates my high regard for dozens of other film composers, it’s just that Steiner, to me, is THE BEST, with Alfred not TOO far behind.

THE INFORMER (1935) saw Steiner’s first Oscar win, along with director John Ford and star Victor McLaglen. A marvellous tale, with a great McLaglen performance and typically superb Ford direction, is all about the IRA, human nature and naïvete. Steiner’s score sticks in the mind like the memory of a perfect summers day. Though the subject matter of the movie is powerful, Steiner weaves a delicate and yet complex musical tapestry. After ‘inventing’ the dramatic score for movies such as THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME and KING KONG, here Steiner develops the art of scoring action, emotion and agenda to a new level of achievement.

1936 saw the full flowering of Steiner’s powers. The British Empire saga THE CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE was primarily set in colonial India, with the Crimean War, in which the famous charge took place, only featuring at the end of the movie. However, this was the movie that really made Errol Flynn into a legendary superstar after CAPTAIN BLOOD (1935) had put him on the map. The greatest director of them all, Michael Curtiz, did a magnificent job on THE CHARGE OF THE LIGHT BRIGADE, the photography was awesome, and a massive cast of Hollywood-based British stalwart character actors was assembled, including a memorable performance from Donald Crisp as Flynn’s commanding officer in India. The spirit of the British Empire is beautifully realized by Curtiz, a director who somehow always successfully nailed his diverse projects with the utmost authenticity despite only speaking broken English. Likewise, Steiner’s score is a tribute to the British colonial forces. His score incorporates familiar British military anthems, as well as a wealth of original material. The incredible skill and humanity with which Curtiz directs is mirrored in Steiner’s detailed scoring, each memorable element of the movie having its own musical accompaniment of equal importance. His music is by turns profound, patriotic, and deeply moving….one scene in which Flynn returns from a skirmish in enemy territory to find his whole British garrison, including wives and children, horribly massacred, is one of the most moving scenes I have witnessed in movies….and Steiner magnifies the emotion to the nth degree.

THE GARDEN OF ALLAH, also 1936, is a unique experience. One of the first colour movies, the richness and depth of light, colour and shadings has never been surpassed. The locations help, never have I seen the atmosphere and essence of being in the desert so perfectly captured on film. The movie looks like an oil painting, such is the beauty of the colour and photography, the desert is brought to life, the people, the sky, the sun and the moon, the whole experience is incredibly romantic. Dietrich, Boyer and Rathbone are magnetic, even the whites of their eyes glow under the silvery desert moon, such is the detail in the photographing. Steiner’s score is equally romantic, unique and unforgettable. A combination of sultry ethnic rhythms, dreamlike and subtle voices and Mahlerian emotional conflict makes for one of Steiner’s top five scores, in my opinion. Steiner’s score goes beyond mood setting or dramatic comment, it is a fully integrated part of the movie, his music BELONGS in this romantic desert world.

Name any famous Hollywood melodrama of the 30’s and 40’s, and the chances are Max Steiner wrote the score. JEZEBEL (1938) was no exception. An exquisite example of pure Hollywood entertainment, JEZEBEL saw a great cast headed by a typically supremely confident Bette Davis….an Oscar winner here, along with the delightful character actress Fay Bainter. Henry Fonda is perfect as the strong and quiet object of Davis’ affections, and a rakish George Brent completes the triangle. Donald Crisp is on hand again. Steiner’s score is a whirlwind of melodramatic contrasts, as colourful and highly charged as Wyler’s wonderful movie.

1939 had two massively entertaining Steiner-scored westerns. THE OKLAHOMA KID had energetic performances from gangsters-in-stetsons James Cagney and Humphrey Bogart. DODGE CITY saw goodie Errol Flynn battling baddie Bruce Cabot (Magua from the 1936 version of LAST OF THE MOHICANS). Steiner’s music was bubbly and flavourful, and added greatly to the charm of these big budget western extravaganzas.

Bette Davis and George Brent teamed up again for 1939’s THE OLD MAID…..the ultimate ‘woman’s picture’. Steiner’s immaculate scoring is one of many successful aspects to this picture that boasts a typically strong supporting cast led yet again by the reliable Scotsman Donald Crisp.

I don’t have to say anything about GONE WITH THE WIND, surely second only to CASABLANCA as the most famous popular film of all time, and Steiner scored both. Musically, CASABLANCA is more famous for its song ‘As Time Goes By’ than for Steiner’s powerful and perfect scoring. However, GONE WITH THE WIND is Steiner’s own, musically speaking.

1940 saw Steiner compose one of my favourite scores of all time, to THE LETTER. I cannot begin to describe how successfully Steiner scores this picture set in British colonial Malaysia. Everything about this movie is top drawer, if you haven’t seen it….see it soon. Bette Davis and Herbert Marshall are superb in their contrasting ways.

1941’s THEY DIED WITH THEIR BOOTS ON is one of my favourite films. The story of Custer is told with such enthusiasm, and Steiner’s score is a gem. Of all of the movies’ memorable scenes, the most unforgettable was seeing Hattie McDaniel skulking in the bushes pretending to be a hooting owl.

1942 was an incredible year for Steiner. Not only CASABLANCA, but NOW, VOYAGER with a memorable Steiner theme that somehow epitomises this composers’ sound. Amongst a cluster of other excellent movies that year was CAPTAINS OF THE CLOUDS. Here, James Cagney played a Canadian airman. This movie also boasted excellent colour and a particularly rousing wartime propaganda message. Real life Canadian Air Marshal Bishop delivers a wonderfully patriotic speech to newly recruited members of the Royal Canadian Airforce from all corners of the British Empire.

1944’s SINCE YOU WENT AWAY is pure Steiner sentimental melody, and he deservedly picked up his third Oscar. However, it was at this point in his career when Steiner’s music took on even greater depth, subtlety and variety. MILDRED PIERCE (1945) had a spectacular performance from Joan Crawford, moody direction from Curtiz and a darkly romantic score from Steiner. Here it seemed, Curtiz was moving into more contemporary territory, his movie was peopled by cynical and ugly characters, Jack Carson and Zachary Scott, and Steiner’s scoring took a giant leap into the modern world.

A STOLEN LIFE (1946) provided further evidence of Steiner’s continuing maturity. Bette Davis playing twins and upsetting Glen Ford provides an immense amount of fun. The movie is moody, romantic and intriguing….and Steiner’s deep and rich score is all of those things too.

Also in 1946, Steiner scored THE BIG SLEEP, and what a brilliant job he made of it. Everything about this movie was slick, the script, the performances, the twisting story, and Steiner’s moody and noirish score, full of smooth understatement punctuated with exciting bursts. His music suits the movie as well as Bogart’s snappy and cynical star performance.

1947’s DEEP VALLEY is an unusual film. There are fine performances from Dane Clark and Fay Bainter, and especially Henry Hull, here proving what a fine character actor he is when he underplays. The tense and brooding atmosphere of this film is heightened further by Steiner’s complex and compelling score, full of gorgeous and unusual orchestral combinations.

1948 saw Steiner continue his ceaseless run of successful projects. JOHNNY BELINDA was another unusual and distinctive movie from the director of DEEP VALLEY, Jean Negulesco. Here again Steiner proves he’s not just a composer of the sweet and sentimental. His score hits virtually every emotion.

THE ADVENTURES OF DON JUAN had a mid-career Errol Flynn still proving he’s ‘got it’. Here he battles that excellent British villain Robert Douglas and Steiner’s score is in the best swashbuckling Korngold tradition.

SILVER RIVER is another excellent mature-Flynn movie, this time a western. The ultra-reliable Thomas Mitchell is particularly good in this one and Steiner’s score is remarkable.
They don’t come much better than KEY LARGO. Here Steiner creates a stunningly mature score, complete with appropriate jazz elements.

1949 saw another of Steiner’s greatest scores. His work on WHITE HEAT is a million miles away from his famous sweet and sentimental sound. Here he provides an exceptionally taut score in keeping with the searing nature of the movie, a movie that benefits from one of Cagney’s greatest performances. Steiner’s score is a model of precision scoring, every ominous note serves its purpose.
Also in 1949, THE FOUNTAINHEAD allowed Steiner to pull out all of the stops. An absurdly overwrought movie, it is nevertheless fascinating and immensely entertaining. Gary Cooper, Patricia Neal, and Raymond Massey are superb in this tale of a gifted architect putting his artistic principles above personal gain. Steiner’s score is positively Wagnerian in its size and scope, the music is magnificent and memorable.

And then FLAMINGO ROAD. Sydney Greenstreet is memorable as the manipulative and hideous sheriff Titus Semple. The rest of the cast compete valiantly with Greenstreet’s dominance, and Steiner’s score is an infectious hurricane of overheated musical passages.

BEYOND THE FOREST was much the same. Here, nice doctor Joseph Cotton is virtually ruined by scheming bitch Bette Davis. This one’s a ripe old melodrama, as entertaining as it is ludicrous. Yet again Steiner hums along, no matter how overwrought the scene, the music is never outdone.
In 1950 evil Brit Robert Douglas had Burt Lancaster to contend with in THE FLAME AND THE ARROW, a massively entertaining action movie set in medieval Italy. Steiner’s score is a marvel, and ranks alongside much of Korngold’s swashbuckling work.

OPERATION PACIFIC (1951) was a surefooted John Wayne war movie. Steiner’s music is very impressive throughout the movie.

LIGHTNING STRIKES TWICE, also from 1951, has a young Richard Todd looking for Hollywood stardom. Well, he was okay, as was the film. Steiner’s scoring of this melodrama was effortlessly excellent.

SPRINGFIELD RIFLE (1952) was a rip-roaring western with Gary Cooper as an undercover Union man. Steiner’s western scoring has rarely been better, and combined with his growing maturity, produces here a noteworthy musical accompaniment.

ROOM FOR ONE MORE (1952) saw Steiner in light comedic mood. A delightful romantic/family comedy, with Cary Grant the head of a growing family of orphans, gives Steiner the chance to write some really nice music.

Steiner hit top form with THE CAINE MUTINY in 1954. Bogart’s bearing-crunching Captain Queeg is one of cinema’s most memorable characterizations.

KING RICHARD AND THE CRUSADERS had a smashing performance from Rex Harrison as the evil Saladin, Steiner’s score is epic.

1956 had two great contributions from Steiner. George Sanders fantastic performance in DEATH OF A SCOUNDREL is scored with incredible energy and innovation. Steiner’s score switches from Mahlerian complexity to jazz, and back again almost seamlessly….definitely one of his finest compositions. THE SEARCHERS is regarded by many as the best western ever made, Steiner’s score complements the agenda of the movie perfectly.

BAND OF ANGELS (1957) was another southern-set civil war saga, with an ageing but excellent Clark Gable. Torin Thatcher’s memorable sea-captain is in the Lee J Cobb bracket of over-the-top performances, and Steiner’s music mixed with some great choral work from the liberated slaves. Steiner’s score also contains some incredibly ferocious and detailed action music, during several bayou chase scenes. One of the most effective parts of this movie was when Gable recounted his slave dealing days in west Africa. He recounted the story as if he was reliving the ghastly events, the herding of the slaves onto his ship, the attempts to beat the British blockade, and the filthy conditions the human cargo endured on the journey. Through all of this Steiner’s music is there, muted, but still a frantic tangle of tribal dissonance, as if emanating from Gable’s tortured mind….very impressive.

THE HANGING TREE (1959) was an excellent late-Gary Cooper western. Cooper’s brilliant performance as a dubious doctor is as sophisticated as Steiner’s score.

SPENCER’S MOUNTAIN (1963) is a movie not to everyone’s taste owing to its gooey sentiment. However, once the goo barrier had been breached, there is a lot to enjoy in this movie. Henry Fonda was at his homespun best, it was the wonderful Donald Crisp’s swansong performance, and Steiner came up with a bright and witty score, surprisingly very jazzy.

Those are the Steiner scores that have stuck in my memory as being simply brilliant. Of course, he’s done many other fine scores that I haven’t mentioned here; in fact, I can’t think of a film he has scored badly, off hand. Of course, there are still lots of Steiner-scored movies I haven’t even seen – there’s always something new to look forward to.”

As I mentioned earlier, LAST ORDERS is based on Graham Swift’s Booker Prize-winning novel and is being directed by Australian Fred Schepisi. The movie is being made on a modest budget of $12 million, but I am quite hopeful that Schepisi will make LAST ORDERS a success despite having made several particularly lousy movies during the 90s. Having said that, one could not have envisaged THE RUSSIA HOUSE failing, but it did, spectacularly, despite having everything money could buy. Since then, only SIX DEGREES OF SEPARATION has come anywhere near being a reasonable movie – but the nature of that movie meant SIX DEGREES OF SEPARATION was never going to be a popular success anyway, no matter who was directing it. As it happened, Schepisi did a reasonable, though hardly innovative and imaginative, job.

On the face of it, LAST ORDERS probably won’t appeal to the widest of audiences either. After all, such great movies as CASABLANCA, ARMAGEDDON, CON AIR, GONE WITH THE WIND and THE ROCK had immediate popular appeal – that these movies were also brilliantly and wittily made merely confirmed their universal appeal and success at the box office. Anyway, LAST ORDERS probably suits Schepisi’s rather limited and ponderous movie-making style. Here (one hopes) he can rely more on the quality of the performances and scripting and on the strength of the material without having to infuse his picture with the kind of all-encompassing vision, intelligence and energy that makes the great film directors like Roland Emmerich, Michael Curtiz, Michael Bay, John Ford, James Cameron, and Steven Spielberg so great.

After LAST ORDERS, Schepisi is expected to move straight on to I WAS AMELIA EARHART, which will star Julianne Moore, and I suppose it’s quite likely that Goldsmith will follow. If I have any real reservations about LAST ORDERS, it is Jerry Goldsmith’s involvement. Forty, thirty, twenty or even ten years ago I would have believed that Goldsmith could only enhance such a picture as LAST ORDERS – indeed, in the past, I would have believed Goldsmith capable of musically enhancing almost any movie with which he was involved. Here in the 21st century though, things are quite different. During the 90s, Goldsmith has worked on some terrible movies – a few of them for Schepisi – and it gives me no pleasure to say that Goldsmith has seemed quite at home scoring lame, vacuous, weak and derivative movies such as THE RIVER WILD, FIRST KNIGHT and CHAIN REACTION, amongst many, many others, simply because Goldsmith’s music has been as lame, vacuous, weak and derivative as the movie’s he has worked on. Unfortunately, when Goldsmith has worked on a rare ‘better’ movie during the 90s, his music has still been lame, vacuous, weak and derivative.

LAST ORDERS may give Goldsmith the opportunity to produce a film score that actually includes elements of wit, subtlety and intelligence – and even some innovation and character. But, based on Goldsmith’s extraordinarily banal output since BASIC INSTINCT, the odds are heavily stacked against it. I hope Goldsmith proves me wrong.

If I’ve got some doubts about Goldsmith’s suitability for LAST ORDERS, those doubts are multiplied ten-fold when it comes to ALONG CAME A SPIDER.

First of all, ALONG CAME A SPIDER is a distinctly unpromising project. It’s a sort-of prequel to KISS THE GIRLS in a genre that has become oh-so familiar – so that would seem to make the movie doubly redundant from the start. The fact there are several other Alex Cross books out there may indicate further movies in the series over the coming years – but that’s only if ALONG CAME A SPIDER is a success, and that seems distinctly unlikely at the moment.

Not only was ALONG CAME A SPIDER a decidedly unpromising project even before shooting began, but post-production problems have bedevilled its makers and an original autumn 2000 release has been put back to April 2001 to allow for re-shoots – shooting was actually ‘completed’ in May 2000 – so all things ALONG CAME A SPIDER look very gloomy at the moment.

Thus far, test screenings of ALONG CAME A SPIDER have met with almost universal disapproval – and that’s being kind. The movie has been described as cliched, formulaic, derivative, boring, and, worst of all, far too familiar. It is difficult to imagine how a few re-shoots can salvage what is already being described as a terrible movie.

One would think from the above description of ALONG CAME A SPIDER that Goldsmith would be most suited to such a redundant and tame picture – but, the fact remains that Goldsmith just is not suited to scoring any movies that fall outside of the childish action/fantasy/sci-fi genres in which he has been entombed during the past twenty five years. Therefore, based on the evidence so far, Goldsmith’s score can only make a poor and bland movie even poorer and even blander. It would be a massive surprise if Goldsmith employed anything other than the ponderous, threadbare, predominantly acoustically-hollow, utterly derivative, mechanical and unmusical style with which he scored LA CONFIDENTIAL.

Almost everything points to the probability that Goldsmith will be rejected from ALONG CAME A SPIDER – only the likelihood that the movie will be a stinker may save Goldsmith from rejection, owing to the fact that the producers will be unwilling to pay for a replacement score for a movie that isn’t going to make any money, as seemed to be the case on CITY HALL.

Haven’t things come to a pretty pass? It appears now that Goldsmith’s best chance of NOT being rejected is to work on a movie that is probably going to be so bad that the producers won’t bother to replace his score.

I await future Goldsmith developments with grim anticipation.

quote:

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Originally posted by DANIEL2:
After all, such great movies as CASABLANCA, ARMAGEDDON, CON AIR, GONE WITH THE WIND and THE ROCK had immediate popular appeal – that these movies were also brilliantly and wittily made merely confirmed their universal appeal and success at the box office.
[/B]

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ARE YOU SERIOUS?!!!!! Saying that pop-drivel like The Rock, Con Air and Armaggedon is in the same galaxy as those other great films is the equivalent of putting George Pan Cosmotos, Micheal Bay and Jan DeBont in the pantheon as such great movie directors as Ford, Kurasawa, and Bergman.

All your other comments are, therefore, highly suspect and fallacious. And your incessant popular = quality delusions are getting worse.

This simple axiom holds true in my book;
what is popular isn't always good and what is good isn't always popular.

quote:

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Originally posted by Widescreen:
Well... not directly, the direct quote is as follows:

"Pananche. It means style or--"
"I know what it means."
"Really? I had to look it up."

Hint: Ennio Morricone composed the score.

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Frank Is Depressed
Frank And Lilly

I agree with you (up to a point) that what is popular is not always good, and what is good is not always popular. For instance, DOCTOR DOOLITTLE (1998) was an immensely popular movie, and though it was fairly entertaining it wasn’t very good; and yet, BABE: PIG IN THE CITY (1998) was not at all popular, and yet, in my opinion, the movie was excellent.

However, in the case of Jerry Goldsmith’s 90s output, neither has his music been popular, nor has it been any good.

Coincidentally, I have just carried out an unofficial poll of friends and acquaintances relating to Goldsmith’s relative popularity.

The survey was directly inspired by Michael Ware’s response at a thread found elsewhere on the Web, and during Thursday September 21 and Friday September 22, several hundred people were asked if they have heard of Jerry Goldsmith. These are the results as of 12 noon GMT Saturday September 23 – responses are still pouring in, so you can expect further updates in the near future.

During the past two days my family have been asking their friends and colleagues, their school-chums and teachers, their neighbours and acquaintances, the people they pass on the sidewalk and so on, the simple questions thus –

1) ‘Have you heard of the film composer John Williams?’
2) ‘Have you heard of the film composer Jerry Goldsmith?’
3) ‘Have you heard of the film composer James Horner?’
4) ‘Have you heard of the film composer Max Steiner?’
5) ‘Have you heard of the film composer Hans Zimmer?’
6) ‘Do you like Star Wars?’
7) ‘Do you like Star Trek?’

The survey has also been conducted by telephone and e-mail to friends and family all over the world. For instance, during my garbage-collection rounds in Bristol, I have questioned colleagues, customers and passers-by in the street. Telephone and e-mail response has been huge – responses have been received from friends and family based in Canada, the USA, the Republic of Ireland, Latvia, Australia, Zimbabwe, New Zealand, South Africa, France, Belize, the Caribbean, Malaysia, India, St Helena, Argentina, Israel, Egypt, South Yemen and other countries from within the British Commonwealth and without.

The overall survey results have been both fascinating, and yet not at all surprising.

Total number of people questioned as at 1200 GMT Sep 23 2000 – 359.

Please find below the number of people who said they had heard of the particular composer, and also the number of people who said they liked Star Trek and Star Wars.

John Williams – 302 (84%)
Jerry Goldsmith – 22 (6 %) (including five who weren’t sure)
James Horner – 259 (72%)
Max Steiner – 213 (59%)
Hans Zimmer – 200 (55%)
Star Wars – 318 (88%)
Star Trek – 96 (26%)

Interestingly, all of the people who had heard of Jerry Goldsmith had also heard of John Williams. And, 37% of those who had heard of Hans Zimmer had not heard of Jerry Goldsmith.

This means that for every single person who has heard of Jerry Goldsmith, there are fifteen people who have heard of John Williams. It’s a similar picture when it comes to the Star Wars and Star Trek series of movies, most people like Star Wars but most people don’t like Star Trek.

Finally, I shall post more detailed analysis and further poll updates over the course of the coming weeks.

Thanks again HAL 2000 for giving me the opportunity to consolidate my opinions.

Your poll really proves little other than points by popularity. My satement put quality and popularity in two very different boxes. Your poll does not address quality itself nor the finer points of film scoring.

Nevermind your own opinon on qualatative assesment. that is simply subjective as there are quantities of other individuals with a completely divergent point of view, myself included.

You are entitled to interpret the results of the poll as you wish – but the results still stand.

CUNNINGHAM’S FILM COMPOSER POLL - update

The most recent responses to “Cunningham’s Film Composer Poll” have now been analysed and are thus –

Total number of people questioned as at 1200 GMT Sep 24 2000 – 420.

Please find below the number of people who said they had heard of the particular composer, and also the number of people who said they liked Star Trek and Star Wars.

John Williams – 349 (83%)
Jerry Goldsmith – 33 (8 %)
James Horner – 299 (71%)
Max Steiner – 250 (59%)
Hans Zimmer – 241 (57%)
Star Wars – 368 (87%)
Star Trek – 117 (28%)

A surge of Star Trek and Goldsmith familiars – would you believe it?! – One for Ripley perhaps? Interestingly, of the 61 responses to the poll since noon yesterday, fourteen originated from a cousin in Arkansas who runs a class for those with learning difficulties.

Further updates and more detailed analysis will be forthcoming.

Shaun

Responses to the survey continue to pour in.

Total number of people questioned as at 1200 GMT Monday Sep 25 2000 – 515.

Please find below the number of people who said they had heard of the particular composer, and also the number of people who said they liked Star Trek and Star Wars.

John Williams – 437 (85%)
Jerry Goldsmith – 36 (7 %)
James Horner – 350 (68%)
Max Steiner – 288 (56%)
Hans Zimmer – 304 (59%)
Star Wars – 469 (91%)
Star Trek – 128 (25%)

Star Wars seems to meet with universal approval, whereas Star Trek is very much a minority interest.

Goldsmith barely registers at all, a fact that I find totally unsurprising.

Get the hell out of here.

I believe you will find the answers to your queries in the first Poll posting I made at this thread. Meantime, here is the latest poll update.

CUNNINGHAM’S FILM COMPOSER POLL – update.

Responses to the survey continue to pour in.

Total number of people questioned as at 1200 GMT Tuesday Sep 26 2000 – 531.

Please find below the number of people who said they had heard of the particular composer, and also the number of people who said they liked Star Trek and Star Wars.

John Williams – 451 (85%)
Jerry Goldsmith – 37 (7 %)
James Horner – 366 (69%)
Max Steiner – 292 (55%)
Hans Zimmer – 313 (59%)
Star Wars – 477 (90%)
Star Trek – 128 (24%)

Only sixteen further responses since yesterday – but the poll will remain open.

Further poll updates will be posted in the coming days and weeks – plus some more detailed analysis of the existing results.

quote:

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Originally posted by DANIEL2:

Only sixteen further responses since yesterday – but the poll will remain open.

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How your mate Norman Bates voted, Cuningahm?

Total number of subjects questioned as of 1606 GMT Tuesday Sep 26 2000 – 895

People who like jello - 563 (63%)
Men who wear pantihose to the office - 131 (14%)
People who secretly wish they were Cher - 709 (79%)
Dogs who have heard of Jerry Goldsmith - 405/411 (98%)*
Hamsters who think they know more about the subtleties of orchestral scoring than the MV team: - 42/43 (99%!!)**
Paraplegic Leper Transvestites who surf: - 1/1 (100%)

I hope you all found this poll interesting. I will continue to gather results in the coming weeks...hopefully this will help you all to come to conclusions that are both REAL and NECESSARY.

I also hope that you find this poll as accurate and relevant as Daniel2's.

Tim

* - Subjects polled were asked to bark ONCE for yes and TWICE for no
** - Subjects polled were brought to observe the MediaVenture facilities and given an anthology of MV scores to listen to for a 2 week period.

The current hiatus in Goldsmith’s output provides the perfect opportunity for me to reflect on Goldsmith’s catalogue of disappointing 90s film scores – what is it that makes the bulk of Goldsmith’s 90s work so ordinary? I shall attempt to explain.

Having entered into somewhat of a slump during the late 80s (the quality of Goldsmith’s output was still excellent (and often refreshingly experimental) but the projects were generally poor), the veteran composer then embarked on skilfully scoring some top-drawer productions (amongst the dross) during the early 90s –

Gremlins 2 (US 1989) movie ** score ***1/2 album **1/2

TOTAL RECALL (US 1990) movie ***1/2 score ***** album **
THE RUSSIA HOUSE (US 1990) movie ** score ***** album ***1/2

Not Without My Daughter (US 1991) movie *** score *** album 1/2
Sleeping With The Enemy (US 1991) movie *** score ***1/2 album *1/2
Mom & Dad Save The World (US 1991) movie * score ** album 1/2

Medicine Man (US 1992) movie **1/2 score ** album *1/2
BASIC INSTINCT (US 1992) movie ****1/2 score ***** album **1/2

During this period, Goldsmith’s scores to THE PUBLIC EYE (1992) and GLADIATOR (1992) were rejected – perhaps indicative of the underlying decline in Goldsmith’s approach to film scoring. Indeed, the resurgence in the quality of Goldsmith’s work and his increased desirability amongst the filmmaking fraternity during the early 90s was to prove a ‘false dawn’ – Goldsmith’s subsequent projects (to present day) have been of generally poor quality (though well-budgeted) and, on the whole, scored with the absolute minimum of invention and innovation – starting with MR BASEBALL.

MR BASEBALL (US 1992) movie * score **1/2 album **

Unfortunately, most people that may have heard Goldsmith’s score to MR BASEBALL will only remember the excruciatingly inept main theme to this dire Fred Schepisi baseball movie. Goldsmith’s title music is stunningly and cringemakingly awful – quite simply, it is one of the worst pieces of music I have ever had the misfortune to listen to – it is an affront to good taste. To create such a miasmatical sound is almost an artform in itself.

A hideously stilted pop ensemble work around an embellished version of the baseball anthem so familiar to us all. However, the use of the familiar anthem is actually one of the lesser faults of this ear-eroding exercise in aural torture. Following the main theme’s introduction, Goldsmith ‘treats’ the listener to the most obvious, facile, banal, childish, lumbering and ponderous keyboard-led collection of embarrassingly obtuse musical notes ever performed – this is kindergarten stuff of the first order – it’s petrifying, it’s baby-music and it is utterly and absolutely naff.

However, the rest of the score displays Goldsmith’s potential for writing romantic, intimate and thematically rich contemporary-styled film music – a shame it is wasted on such an atrociously pathetic movie such as MR BASEBALL. Acoustic guitar, Japanese-styled instrumentation and a whole range of electronics combine to create periods of delightful romantic melody and musical depth before the hideous main theme returns at the climax of the album to completely undermine all of the good work that preceded it. In the movie itself, post-production chopping and changing makes Goldsmith’s score almost worthless.

….to be continued….

I'm VERY unimpressed with the conduct at the FSM board... I have to thank PeterK for his moderation, since I admit that it is a very good thing for this forum.

He was banned for posting an adulterated version of a personal email he received from one of the members.

In the words of Bill Smith, moderator of that board:

quote:

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Due to his repeated abuses of this Board, Daniel2 has been permanently banned from the FSM Message Board. He has been skirting the line of decency and tolerance for weeks now, and with this unauthorized publication of private correspondence and false representation of conversations, he has crossed the line into pure policy violation.
Sometimes people can get around this banning procedure, so I will need all of you other members to keep an eye out for him. I would like any of you who notice activities by Daniel2 to email me at "smith@email.com" and mention where this may be happening.

Thank you very much. Hopefully the quality of this board has gone up a few notches.

If any of you has a problem with this decision, again please feel free to email me and we will discuss it.

Thank you for your time and attention. Go back to your homes, folks. The show's over.

Bill

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FOREVER YOUNG (US 1992) movie **1/2 score ** album *1/2

FOREVER YOUNG provides us with an excellent example of a single Goldsmith score that displays both his finest film composing attributes, and his worst. This score serves as a hybrid between Goldsmith’s previously innovative, broad-minded and thorough compositional technique and approach to film scoring, and his subsequently often simplistic and unimaginative film music output characterized by spartan and ‘skeletal’ orchestration, weak thematic material, derivative and bland musical devices, and a banal, featureless and characterless quality to each separate score.

For all its faults, at least Goldsmith’s work on MR BASEBALL was different, at least for him. He applied all of the qualities of CMS to his MR BASEBALL score – his music, at least as he intended it, was appropriate – it was romantic, fun, jazzy – only the main theme itself and the poor quality of the movie itself undid all of Goldsmith’s well-intentioned efforts. With FOREVER YOUNG however, Goldsmith, for the first time, embarked on creating a score that was not wholly appropriate – though the initial wartime sequences were beautifully and appropriately scored, the final two-thirds of the movie, set in present day, was very conservatively scored by Goldsmith – though perhaps that was partly due to the nature of (or the fault of) the movie itself.

As soon as Gibson emerges from his deep-frozen cocoon, Goldsmith’s previously excellent score falls apart completely, as does the movie to a somewhat lesser extent. Instead of bringing his musical score into the 1990s, Goldsmith either refrains from composing for some scenes altogether, or when he does write some music he merely continues to score in virtually the same mode as he did for the initial heavily romantic wartime sequences. As I say, the movie itself tends to falter when we reach the present day. Instead of stepping up a gear, the drama becomes rather confined and lacklustre – the magic of the opening twenty minutes is lost. The present-day scenes were crying out for a far more contemporary sound from Goldsmith, not only to contrast with the 1940s segments, but also simply to instil some life into the proceedings.

The movie begins excitingly enough with Gibson test-piloting – and Goldsmith’s music is appropriately urgent and action-orientated. However, though this opening segment of action music is pretty good, it does bear an alarming similarity to Goldsmith’s TOTAL RECALL action music – not a bad thing in itself, but the action music in FOREVER YOUNG does not compare well with the Verhoeven movie, being just a weaker, slower, and less interestingly orchestrated version of TOTAL RECALL – indeed, virtually all of Goldsmith’s subsequent 90s action music has been based on TOTAL RECALL, but to an increasingly simplistic and ponderous degree, at least until 1999’s THE MUMMY that had Goldsmith tread some newer action territory.

That said, the opening action cue to FOREVER YOUNG is of some interest – it’s like an interim piece, the ‘link’ between Goldsmith’s sophisticated early 90s style, and his basic and simplistic mid to late 90s mode of composing. This opening cue begins well, albeit rather too heavily acoustic (the throbbing electronics are far too little) and a little threadbare in orchestration, but after a few brass and string flourishes descends in noisy, repetitive, ponderous, cumbersome and monotonous bombast – something that was to characterize much of Goldsmith’s subsequent action music up to 1999.

The opening twenty minute segment of the movie is charming and brimming with character, emotion and period feel. There are some delightfully bucolic scenes, and some great aircraft shots, and Goldsmith’s music is sweeping and beautiful – at least FOREVER YOUNG’s romantic main theme is very good and very appropriate to the movie’s agenda. Indeed, the album opens with a rather too syrupy version of this main theme for light orchestra and saxophone and comes across as being little better than standard elevator music. This is a shame, because there are some nice ideas in there and the thematic development is interesting , conveying a strong sense of romance and tragedy – of course, this album piece was not arranged by Goldsmith himself.

All of the most interesting music that Goldsmith wrote for FOREVER YOUNG seems to be crammed into this opening segment. There’s some very nice stuff just prior to Gibson’s deep-freeze – very much in the mould of BASIC INSTINCT with its elegiac and descending string figures.

But then that’s about it as far as Goldsmith goes. The rest of the movie is very thinly scored – only the tree-house scene makes any impact – and the movie as a whole fails to excite or move. The laboured finale to FOREVER YOUNG completes the disappointment, and as the movie stutters towards its close, Goldsmith’s score is positively obnoxious, lurching from ear-splitting bombast, during the frantic chase scenes, to droning syrup for the protracted climactic reunion.

Both movie and score promise so much early on, but both fizzle out before the movie is even halfway through – the album reflects this unfortunate state of affairs, virtually all of the musical interest is in the opening few cues – FOREVER YOUNG, movie and score, is a great disappointment.

From what I have read of your postings at this message board, you seem like a very pleasant, knowledgeable and reasonable chap – but, I have never sought your approval, agreement, or comradeship on anything - so whether you choose to respond to my postings or avoid the issues I raise in future, it is of very little concern to me, and is probably of even less concern to everyone else.

Perhaps you see yourself as some kind of ‘Message-Board Sage’ – well H Rocco, I have to disappoint you – we are all equal here, each individual member has his own mind, his own motivations and his own point of view. Every member of this message board is afforded the same opportunities and restricted by the same obstacles when posting here. The message board is a great leveller – affluence, social position, class status, race, religion, or political philosophy all count for nothing here. We cannot buy space or privilege on the message board, any more than we can buy someone else’s silence. Of course, there are limitations to what the message-board member can post, and, if such rules and regulations as stipulated by the Board Administrator are not adhered to, then a member should be cautioned or banned – just as I have been banned from the FSM Message Board. I broke the rules there, and Bill Smith quite properly banned me, I accept that and do not regret my actions for one moment – I’m only sorry that this has led to Timmer being unable to post – I hope this is only a temporary situation.

Your obvious distaste, H Rocco, for my criticisms of much of Goldsmith’s 90s output is matched by my puzzlement that you admire and respect his work from the same period, but you will not find me attempting to denigrate your opinion – I merely accept and respect your point of view, and continue to try to comprehend it. If I had merely stated ‘Goldsmith is rubbish’, without explaining my opinions, you may have some grounds for complaint about my postings at this message board – but, the truth is, I always make every effort to explain my opinions about Goldsmith, or whatever, to the fullest.

In fact, your attitude here at this thread indicates that you may be rather self-conscious about, and ill at ease with, your admiration for Goldsmith’s music. There is no reason to be ashamed of your liking of Goldsmith’s 90s music just because people such as myself are sceptical of its quality. I am proud of my admiration for the work of Zimmer, Max Steiner, Horner, Alfred Newman, John Williams, Danny Elfman, John Barry and so on, and have no self-doubts about professing my admiration for these supremely gifted and CMS-excellent film composers, despite the adverse reaction this may engender from other board members. Likewise, my love of 90s, current, 30s, and 40s cinema is something that I’m very comfortable with.

By the same token, I have no qualms about discussing those small elements of cinema that I do not regard highly. The years mid 50s to mid 80s I see as a period in cinema’s history of relative underachievement. Likewise, Goldsmith’s output 1993 through 1998 I see as a period of relative underachievement from that individual composer. As far as the bulk of cinema’s history and the output of upwards of eighty other important film composers is concerned, I have nothing but the highest regard. Additionally, as I have said above, I find a sizeable proportion of Goldsmith’s output to be of the highest quality, and though I felt cinema during the 60s and 70s was at its weakest, I still believe there were many fine movies made during that period of lesser quality.

I guess we are fundamentally different in our attitudes towards cinema and the talents that work in it. Though we both love movies, I regard cinema with little seriousness, whereas you seem to regard cinema with great importance owing to it apparently being a focal point to your life – and good luck to you.

Because of this, it would seem that you are far more likely to take personal offence at opposing opinions than myself.

Andre Lux

I would like to publicly state that I commend the FSM Message Board moderator Bill Smith for banning me from posting at the FSM Message Board. My actions in posting an amended version of a privately received e-mail from a fellow board member did not conform to Message Board policy and Bill Smith rightly followed the letter of the law by banning me – he was left with no alternative.

Having said that, I would like to attempt qualify my actions in posting the amended version of an e-mail received from The Big Bear.

1) The e-mail I received from The Big Bear was unsolicited.
2) The e-mail I received from The Big Bear did not contain any personal or sensitive information.
3) The alterations I made to the e-mail that I subsequently published at the message board were of a sufficiently ludicrous nature so as to render the posting obviously absurd.

I make the above three fundamental points, not because I don’t accept Bill Smith’s decision to ban me, but to explain why Bill Smith had no alternative but to ban me. Though I may have contravened message board policy, my actions have been far from improper. After all, many other board members have arguably behaved with far less decency than I, and yet may not have contravened message board policy. For instance, Chris Kinsinger, Greg Bryant and The Big Bear himself have publicly wished me dead.

Therefore, though I accept that I have not conformed to message board policy, I do not believe I have behaved improperly.

Message received.

Jonathon Little

MATINEE (US 1993) movie *1/2 score *1/2 album *

MATINEE was Goldsmith’s first movie release of 1993, and further confirmed this composer’s plummet from accomplished and innovative film-scoring talent to the dismally uninspired recycler of stale musical ideas that we have become so familiar with.

However, Goldsmith’s score to MATINEE is not entirely bereft of good things. There is a wonderfully nostalgic waltz-like string segment that comes across well on the album, but, like so many of Dante’s movies, is almost lost within the movie itself – such is the low-volume dubbing of Goldsmith’s score, and the generally haphazard placement of the music.

Goldsmith’s MATINEE main theme is a light, bright, bouncy and pleasant piece – in itself fine for the movie, but really amounting to nothing more than redundant schmaltz – indeed, such string, piano, flute, ponderous-keyboard and oboe-heavy music seems to have become a 90s Goldsmith trademark. Ever since SLEEPING WITH THE ENEMY, Goldsmith seems to have constantly relied upon this cloying combination of ‘innocent’ and ‘bright’ instruments – harp, flute, oboe and strings – rarely does Goldsmith depart from using this combination of instruments to musically portray bright and sunny exuberance or innocence. SLEEPING WITH THE ENEMY had a fine score, but ever since, Goldsmith has relied far too heavily on the sound that he created for that movie.

Beyond the main theme to MATINEE and that delightfully nostalgic segment, there is some rather more threatening jazz for one of the movie’s less pleasant characters and another warm piano-led segment that immediately puts one in mind of Khachaturian’s Spartacus. However, the jazz aspect to the score is sadly very much in the minority – a saxophone makes a brief appearance during the movie, but doesn’t make it to the album. The rest of the score is a mixture of frivolous and jocular musical farce, some heavy brass passages to underscore MANT (the movie within a movie), and plenty of droopy marmalade music. The final cue on the album recalls all of the movie’s themes and motifs, and ends with more of that bouncy frivolous ‘ragtime’ stuff – the album makes for a wretched stand-alone listening experience – as almost all film-score albums do – but even in the movie, this Goldsmith score usually fails to register.

Overall, Goldsmith’s score to MATINEE is disappointingly threadbare – though there are some good ideas, the music never really takes off, the orchestration is usually very thin, thus the thematic ideas rarely seem to gel. It’s like a weak and wishy-washy version of GREMLINS 2, just as the action music in FOREVER YOUNG is like a weak and wishy-washy version of TOTAL RECALL. However, MATINEE (the movie itself) doesn’t add up to much anyway. It bends over backwards trying to be charming, and despite John Goodman’s ingratiating presence, falls well short of the mark. The climactic scenes of frantic chaos are particularly poorly handled, with people running around in circles getting absolutely nowhere in the worst pantomime tradition.

MATINEE is a very minor cinematic entry, and Goldsmith’s score is very much in keeping with the movie’s anonymity.

Don't lose your time talking to me, lad.
I know who you are and what you are up to, remember?

Your hypocrisy bares no limits and you seem to be quite proud of it.

I sure don't want anything with you.

Now, go on with your freak show and pray that someone continue paying attention in your ludicrous babble.

H. Rocco is right.