He composes great scores, there is no doubt about that. It's funny, I rarely see people saying "that Horner score sucks" or even "I don't like that Horner score"... It always seems to be "Look at him, that cheap bastard, all he does is take his stuff from other films". Very true, but again, that doesn't make his scores worse.

Look at Williams, for example. Star Wars, Jurassic Park, Patriot, Indy... Sure, it's just a "style", but there is no doubt when you listen to those scores that it is Williams and nobody else. And didn't Williams take some stuff directly from Amistad for Patriot? Nobody seemed to mention that... I loved the score, and personally, I don't care that he did. Now, Horner easily takes more of his old work and places it in his new more than any composer out there. But it isn't so much that it seems you are listening to the same score like some of you say. Most people give him NO respect.

Personally I love Horner's music,his older music that is.Stuff like Krull,Brainstorm, Aliens,Willow,Star Trek 2 and Cocoon.But there is no denying that consistantly reuses themes and motifs from previous scores on every new score he does.If you don't hear the note for note similarities in most of his scores,then you are not listening.He uses the same orchestrations and melodies in practically every composition.If there isn't a xylophone and a crashing piano in it it's not a James Horner score.I am just tired of it.He has just seemed to run out of ideas and has lost his creativity so he reuses the same old music over and over.He is the king of self-plagiarizm if there ever was one.

John Williams has his own style yes,so does Jerry Goldsmith.But I can remember very few times in listening to a score by either of them and saying that the themes and melodies are almost identical to 25 of their other scores.But with Horner it is just the opposite.Almost everytime I listen to a Horner score from the 90s I find myself saying "that's the theme from....." or "that's a motif from....".

It is undeniable that he reuses his music all the time,and it is just getting a little old.I like horner alot and hope to hear something new and fresh from him real soon.I think he has talent,he just needs to put a little more effort into his writing.

James Horner writes some pretty decent music =) (...Battle Beyond The Stars, Star Trek II, Aliens, Willow, The Mask of Zorro, The Rocketeer, "Casper's Lullaby" and so on and so forth...)

*sigh*

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Originally posted by THE GREEK:
The same things again and again and again....

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Just like the endless pro and contra debates about him.

Horner doesn't deserve all of the flack he is getting for sure, though some of it is justified. If he's good, he really is good though. The Perfect Storm was among his best recent scores.

I've said this before and got yelled at the first time for it, but personally, James Horner was a phase for me. Maybe that's what it will be like for others. Maybe someday we'll see "nameless Horner fan" come out and bash him....and feel good about it.

It's all a matter of listening to more film music other than James Horner and Hans Zimmer. This is how we learn.

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Originally posted by Matthew:
Personally I love Horner's music,his older music that is.Stuff like Krull,Brainstorm, Aliens,Willow,Star Trek 2 and Cocoon.But there is no denying that consistantly reuses themes and motifs from previous scores on every new score he does.If you don't hear the note for note similarities in most of his scores,then you are not listening.He uses the same orchestrations and melodies in practically every composition.If there isn't a xylophone and a crashing piano in it it's not a James Horner score.I am just tired of it.He has just seemed to run out of ideas and has lost his creativity so he reuses the same old music over and over.He is the king of self-plagiarizm if there ever was one.

John Williams has his own style yes,so does Jerry Goldsmith.But I can remember very few times in listening to a score by either of them and saying that the themes and melodies are almost identical to 25 of their other scores.But with Horner it is just the opposite.Almost everytime I listen to a Horner score from the 90s I find myself saying "that's the theme from....." or "that's a motif from....".

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I think writers and composers are the nicest of human beings cause they get dumped on so often by those who believe they are better.

Ummm...sorry about going OT...just wanted to comment on one of the posts above..

NP - nothing...I hate not being able to play my music at work...sigh....

Here's another question:

Why is it (or at least it seems this way) that fans of early Horner seem to dislike the current stuff he's churning out? (And yes that's a broad blanket I'm throwing out that certainly doesn't cover everyone)

I tend to be skeptical if it's simply an issue of supposed plagarism because Horner cribs no more "now" then he did "then". It hasn't been an isolated instance in his career, but has taken place seemingly on a continuous basis. Works like KRULL, UNCOMMON VALOR, FIELD OF DREAMS etc. are just as derivative as SNEAKERS, TITANIC and BICENTENNIAL MAN, etc. That includes the self-borrowings and lifts from other composers. So I just find that reasoning difficult to understand, if not downright confusing and even hypocritical.

Is it that his past, early scores were more musically interesting and thoughtful than what he's churning out now? Well, speaking personally, there are probably about as many scores that I dislike of Horner's current output (PATRIOT GAMES, BICENTENNIAL MAN, THE PELICAN BRIEF) then there are of his early scores (BRAINSTORM, UNCOMMON VALOR, RED HEAT). Likewise, concerning those I like from "now" (THE SPITFIRE GRILL, THE MASK OF ZORRO, THE PERFECT STORM) and those I like from "then" (STAR TREK II, KRULL, WILLOW). Overally, it balances itself out.

Of course these are my own views of his music, and others certainly will differ from what I've claimed to be a good score and a bad, or lesser score. But the quality, at least in my eyes, is more balanced both ways then what is often stated.

1. I want to HATE the music as much as possible.

2. I can't because mostly it is very good, and well-crafted, and I wind up loving the things like Bicentennial Man anyway, dammit.

My girlfriend and I have a little running joke. Any time we hear ANY piece of familiar music, be it "The Wedding March" or "Happy Birthday", I always point to where the music's coming from and say, "Hey! James Horner!"

I guess you have to be here to enjoy that.

Re: this topic, my problem is I've been cursed with a semi-photographic (audiographic?) memory. I can repeat dialogue verbatim after seeing something once. I can't read movie reviews or watch "making of" stuff
because it'll be indelibly etched on my brain & the "surprises" spoiled for me. This is not a problem for most people--my girlfriend never worries about being "spoiled" by previews because she says she forgets it right after she sees/hears it. A side effect of this memory thing, is that repetition REALLY bothers me, whereas it doesn't bother most people. Probably because my cursed brain focuses in on it. I think this is partly why Horner's re-using music bothers some & is a non-issue to others. A lot of folks were never bothered by the repetitious dialogue in Sports Night, whereas it drove me up the freaking wall.

Secondly, although all good composers SHOULD have a distinct voice, IMO the better ones explore within that voice. They experiment with nuance & instrumentation & phrasing, find new places to go & things to try. They look for challenges & risk failing. Ennio Morricone is a prime example. I might
not always agree with his choices, but he's never boring. Yes, Williams sounds like Williams (and Beethoven sounds like Beethoven) but he continues to grow in complexity and depth. This is the mark of a truly great composer, IMO.

As for Perfect Storm, my biggest problem was that I felt Horner used the main theme early & way too often, so that its effect was blunted for me. I'd heard it too many times, so that when the big moment came towards the end, I just didn't feel the surge of emotion I was meant to. When I thought about it later, I wondered if he (or the producer?) was trying way too hard to create another "My Heart Will Go On." I felt like it was being rammed down my throat--you WILL like this & buy it!

dave

But every rule has it's exceptions, and there have been moments when Horner has kicked A and justified his career to me.