Score vs. Score?

Picture vs. Picture?

A good friend of mine and I have this point of contention: I say that TMP's score blows THE WRATH OF KHAN's out of the water.

I love TWOK's music but TMP's is so ornate and engaging and layered and hypnotic whereas TWOK's is bombastic and all but (to me) seemingly two-dimensional NOT TO MENTION that it shares THE SAME exact tunes (see Cocoon and Battle Beyond the Stars)as other Horner works.

If I had to make a top ten of my fave scores THE MOTION PICTURE is at number 1.
KHAN's would not be in the top ten....even though I do like it a lot.

As far as the film's themselves? STAR TREK II is probably my favorite Star Trek film (then 1,4,6,3,8,7,9,5).

Sometimes referred to as STAR TREK THE MOTIONLESS PICTURE, it can be a tad "wooden" at times. BUT, it is the ONLY Star Trek film that has the scope of a major motion picture. (My own personal opinion is that "they" indirectly were trying to fashion a type of 2001 A Space
Odyssey style.) ALL of the others pale in comparison to the first one's grandeur....even with the scores.

As for the DVD, I hope that the original (12 minute longer version) is included as well as the brand new DIRECTOR's CUT.
Does anyone know how this new version will affect the existing score? Does anyone know if there's ever been a rejected score for a Star Trek film? Does anyone ELSE think Rosenman's SHOULD have been rejected?

I can't wait for this release!!!

yes, I'm shallow for not looking deeper, but those uni's stink.

And I never liked the bald chick. Perhaps cuz I never saw the film until after I had seen Sinead O'Connor once or twice; I dunno.

In the context of TMP, Goldsmith's themes never get old. They stand for the elements of adventure, romance, mystery and discovery that the film seems (or to some, TRIES) to hold. I like the film. But then again, I'm Mr. Positive - I apparently like everything!

Horner's themes never get old, either. They excite me. They are exciting themes. It's an exciting, emotionally charged score that gets the blood pumping. They remind me of the emotion that flowed through every facet of the film. TMP (the film, not the score) lacked this. But that doesn't make TMP a lacking film. They were simply different stories.

I wouldn't rank score nor film against each other. I don't think I can say one is better than the other. I do think TMP is a milestone in Goldsmith's career. Khan for Horner? Nah... not really. But it's works so incredibly well in the film... and it is STILL a pure joy to listen to outside of it.

Khan is my favourite Trek movie (followed by #6, #8 and #4). I wasn't very impessed with it at first, but it kept growing on me every time I watched it. I love all those little references to other parts of the movie, they really make the film "a whole". It was a delight to finally see it in the original English version when I got the DVD (and to realize how bad the German dub is in fact).

I like the first movie. The story doesn't really exist, but the film has something mysterious. It is the only Trek movie about "exploring", which is after all the purpose the Enterprise was built for. Without the music, TMP would probably be unwatchable. With the music, it's a good movie. And The Enterprise, the launching sequence, and the flyover sequences are simply brilliant.

2) The scores

Goldsmith's score remains the best Trek score so far. Horner's works great in the movie, too, but gets rather unintersting on album after some time, due to too obvious orchestrations, among other things (and I'm still angry that they didn't put Amazing Grace on the CD! :mad .

I DO think that Horner, of all Trek movie composers, best captured the "spirit" of the old series in his scores, especially in the overture to #3. Cliff Eidelman was very good at this, too, he should do another Trek movie.

Where did you get the release date for ST:TMP?

And now for something completely different...

As far as the scores go, I will go with Goldsmith's music to TMP all the time. There's just something about how he protrayed the elements of the film just right. Horner's score for TWOK does work well in the film, but (and I don't want to start anything by this) it's just Horner. It's good music, but I don't think it's as awe-inspiring as TMP's.

Now I know there are those of you who "can't watch" the film, and I admit it does have a lot of flaws. But I will always be sentimental towards it, as it was the first movie, and us fans had been waiting years for new Trek.

And Jeron, when did Goldsmith score The Phantom Menace? I thought Williams did. You keep alluding to "TPM." Wait!!!.. Is the DVD going to be Star Trek: The Phantom Menace?

Jeron

None of the characters behaved as they should and a bunch of epic shots of weird stuff is not Star Trek. It is about the characters, not the sets.

That is why Wrath of Khan is much better. It is about everything that happens to people and how they change and what they stand for. It is the quintessential Star Trek movie against which all others MUST be judged. It was not only good Star Trek, but also a good story. In my opinion, this did not happen again until First Contact where Picard has to face his darker side and his need for revenge against the Borg. It forces him to think about what is really important.

Don't believe me? Consider this: They spent the next two films getting the characters right back to where they were at the start of Wrath of Kahn. Star Trek V was bogged down by a hopelessly bad script and by William Shatner’s attempt at directing comedy. Star Trek VI was better, but they were really starting show the aging and they all seemed tired. Generations was not bad, but it was mostly recycled Next Generation stuff. (They even used some of the same effects shots they used on the series) Insurrection was a very long Next Generation episode lacking the courage to make major changes that might hurt the franchise.

I do tend to agree with your idea Ruger that KHAN and FIRST CONTACT had that "feeling" you remembered, BUT that shouldn't mean that the films in between were NOT "STAR TREK" (whatever THAT is).

KHAN is much more watchable than TMP, in fact when I first saw it at age 10 I thought it was ok but was way way too long. Twenty years later I can "appreciate" it a LOT more.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Star Trek needs a break. I have NO hopes for the new series WHATSOEVER. Granted I'll watch it IF it's only barely tolerable... like Voyager. If ever there was a testament as to how bad of a break this franchise needs.....it's VOYAGER!!!

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Originally posted by Jeron:
Okeeeeeee....... not gonna get into this debate. I like Voyager.

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I'm sorry. Would you like the number of a psychotherapist?

I was actually hoping that if(?) I get to LA over the winter, to walk into Paramount and demand that they let me fix what's wrong.

But I have a far more dangerous confession to make: I like Final Frontier. I honestly believe it does have that feeling that was mentioned above. *duck*

When I saw Final Frontier....lemmie just say that for the first time ever I was embarassed to like Star Trek. The writer's strike and the budget crunching really really hurt it, aside from the fact that Shatner just didnt "get it". Just like the Duchovny directed X-Files episode. You can just tell they don't understand why the fans enjoy the show.

Scotty bumping his head on the pipe? Uhura dancing...horribly? Spock has a brother?

Not only had the franchise sunk to a new low, the respect for the characters was gone.

About the only good thing about V was the score. Really holds up and plays well on its own.

Voyager's writers dont care AT ALL about the characters. Why, for instance is it that, almost every other episode Tom Paris has some new "interest" that we'd never heard about before? And this interest somehow fits into the storyline for the week?

I.E.
Captain Proton? "Oh yeah, I didnt tell you that I love old serials?"

Muscle cars? "Oh yeah, I didnt tell you that I love old cars?"

History buff? "Oh yeah, I didnt tell you that I love the past?"

Wasn't there also an episode where they went to a planet that was all ocean? Didnt Tom or someone say..."Oh yeah, I didnt tell you that I love the sea?"

In DS9 we all know that Sisko loved baseball from the first episode. AND THEY KEPT BRINGING IT UP ALL 7 YEARS?

How convenient was it that Tuvok just happened to have served on the Excelsior with Sulu......just in time for sweeps!!!
Vapid, vacuous and transparent and condescending writing.

Paramount should be ashamed.

It’s not that I hated the Star Trek movies, I didn’t. It’s just that I thought they should have been good movies first and Star Trek movies second.

DS9 was clearly, in my view, the best of the modern trek for all the reasons I have already stated. These characters grew and changed. They went beyond themselves and did things that Star Trek characters NEVER do. I mean, “Yes I am the result of criminal genetic engineering that gives me an advantage” “Yes, I will turn a blind eye to lies, deceit and murder if it will bring the Romulans in on our side” “I will use my status as a religious leader to further the goals of the Federation…or will I?” Kill off a character? If the story called for it, they did.

Voyager could still surprise me. I am waiting for that one special episode that makes all the rest worthwhile. The kind of story that makes me want to cry like “Inner Light” from STNG or “The Visitor” from DS9 so poignant that you can feel the ache leech from the screen and I can care about these characters.

TrekWeb received info from a source on the CGI/FX community (who shall remain anonymous) about Foundation Imaging reworking and upgrading the FX for the upcoming 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture' DVD. What follows is a summary of the reworked scenes, brought to you in cooperation with MediaTrek.com, who scanned the images for us exclusively. We would like to note that there has been some confusion over whether these shots are actually "new FX shots," which they are not; these photos are of the scenes which are to be reworked and restored by Foundation for inclusion on the DVD.

Among the first scenes to be upgraded will be the 'Memory Wall' scene, in which Kirk and Spock enter the V'Ger chamber together (see below photos - note that the space-suits are different from the ones used in the final version). Kirk gets attacked by a horde of metallic pyramid probes (sort of robotic anti-bodies), which makes his space-suit life support mal-function, but is saved by Spock's phaser. After that, the duo enters the 'Memory Wall' chamber through a small tunnel, where Spock mind-melds with V'Ger's database (the large blue wall) and discover its true origins, an act which almost drives Spock crazy (time to Kirk save his friend and rush him back to the ship). This carefully story-boarded and filmed sequence (see below photos and animatics) was cut because of the sub-par special effects created by Abel and Associates, and so a new sequence was designed by Douglas Trumbull and shot by Robert Wise, in which Spock enters V'Ger alone, using an new emergency evacuation space-suit (it is not clear if this version will be cut from the DVD or incorporated as an extra).

A matte painting will be added to Kirk's exit from the Enterprise airlock, removing the glaring inclusion of a soundstage wall seen in the extended version available on video.

Foundation will also deliver matte paintings to an important early scene: Admiral Kirk's meeting with Admiral Nogura at Starfleet Command Headquarters. In the scene, an angry Kirk forces Nogura (played by an elderly asian actor) to give him the Enterprise back.

The Enterprise's voyage through the V'Ger interior will be trimmed and re-edited by director Robert Wise, and will receive 'more colorful effects' from Foundation.

When the first V'Ger probe invades the Enterprise bridge, some action will be re-introduced in the scene: two security officers fire several phasers shots (again to be redone by Foundation) at the probe under Decker's orders, but they are 'zapped' by the probe, just like Lieutenant Ilia later in the scene.
TO SEE THE PICS go to: http://talk.trekweb.com/articles/2000/07/20/964147223.html

RECENT INFO!

from www.TREKTODAY.com
New info on the special edition 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture' DVD has surfaced, thanks to both Media Trek's Matthew J. Klaehn, who forwarded some information from Cinescape Magazine, and thanks to DVD site ThDigital Bits. Take a look:

Previously, it was announced in the Star Trek Magazine that the release date for the new 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture' DVD was the 7th of January of next year (1-7-01), but now it seems it has been pushed back a bit. According to Cinescape, the DVD will be released in the Winter of 2001, but the Digital Bits just got word from Paramount that the DVD is currently slated for Spring 2001. As the Digital Bits info is probably more recent, a Spring release probably looks the most likely now.

The Special Edition of the DVD is being created by director Robert Wise, together with Sharpline Arts. Sharpline Arts is a company specialising in special Laserdisc and DVD editions, and has already worked on films such as 'Aliens' and 'The Sound of Music'.

The new version of 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture' will not only be released on DVD, but also on VHS.

Together with the release of the actual film, Paramount will also be releasing a separate VHS video containing a series of documentaries on the making of the film. These will be narrated by Grace Lee Whitney (Janice Rand).

A new sound mix will be added to the film, as well as some new effects which "serve the story and not the FX junkies", according to writer Mark A. Altman. The DVD creators are planning to go back and do over all the sound and visual effects that did not make it to the originally released version. Previously it was reported that Voyager effects house Foundation Imaging was working on these effects.

And finally, Cinescape quotes the producer of the special edition, Dan Fine, as saying, "Want to see a really good rough cut of a movie? Go rent Star Trek: The Motion Picture. What was released 20 years ago was a rough cut." The new DVD version will apparently be what director Robert Wise wanted the final cut to be.
In related news, the Digital Bits is reporting that 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' DVDs are still definitely on track, but they have been pushed back to the second half of 2001.

Director Robert Wise has been looking back at his final film, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and talking about how he didn't find it a very satisfying experience.

In an interview in the latest issue of Cinefantastique magazine, Wise discusses the problems he's had with the film.

In an interview with Frederick C. Szebin, Wise speaks of the film and its problems, saying, "It's not one of my favorites. I've a lot of people tell me over the years "I think that film is very underrated. It's one of the best Star Trek movies ever made." It certainly wasn't thought of that way at the time."

He adds, "My problem with the film was two-fold. We had to start shooting before we were ready with the script, and the actors were on payroll long before I came on, because the original script was intended to be a major TV movie [the pilot for the aborted Star Trek Phase II TV series]. Sometime along the line they decided to make it a major motion picture."

Wise also talks of his problems with the original company, Robert Abel and Associates, that had been contracted to provide the film's special effects, saying, "Working with them was trying. Finally, we were almost finished shooting, and I was getting worried, having worked along with them on the set, about what they might produce. They had very talented people with them, but they were very, very slow. So I finally managed to see some tests on what they have done. When I saw the tests, I knew immediately that we were never going to get the picture done with them. We had a locked in release date of December 1979. I had to go to the brass and said 'Look, these people could probably finish it if we had two or three more years, but we don't have it.' They learned from that, of course, and some of their subsequent [Trek] films were quite good, made much more economically. I was their guinea pig somehow.

"We had them let go. Fortunately, we got Doug Trumbull and John Dysktra to come on and split the work between them, but we were so far behind by then that they had to work around the clock to meet our deadlines. That ran the budget up untold millions.[...] At one point I was in a meeting with [Michael] Eisner, [Jeffrey] Katzenberg and Barry Diller, who wanted the picture done. I said 'Well guys, okay, we open in December. What are you going to call it - Three Quarters of Star Trek The Motion Picture? Come on!' We finished on time, but only because everyone was working night and day."

Regarding the reviews of the film, Wise reveals, "I was disappointed. I always regretted not having a sneak preview, so we could do more editing on it. I think we it could have stood a little cutting for pacing.[...]"
end of article

It looks like we're still waiting till March for this one!

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Originally posted by Jeron:
I wouldn't rank score nor film against each other. I don't think I can say one is better than the other[Message edited by Jeron on 11-05-2000]

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Hahahhaha. Man I got you now. Lol.

Gonna play Rush Limbaugh for a minute. Check this out.

I have always been a great fan of the '60s STAR TREK series, and anticipated the 1979 movie with great keenness. I’m afraid to say I was heartily disappointed by STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE, and no Star Trek project that I have seen since (movie or television) has successfully recaptured the essence of what *I* liked about the original series, if indeed that was the intent of the moviemakers.

Now, that’s just my personal opinion, and I’m probably in the minority here, so I won’t dwell on the negative aspects to Star Trek, which after all, only amount to MY own personal opinions.

However, I have seen all of the Star Trek movies, and am familiar with each of the scores. Here are my preferred Star Trek scores, best first. I also rate the movie and then the score based on mlw’s ‘star’ system.

1) STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE movie *1/2 score *****

Despite my disappointment with the movie itself, Goldsmith here created one of my personal top 100 movie scores, and easily my favourite Goldsmith score. I felt Goldsmith’s music captured the essence of what Star Trek is all about to a far greater degree of success than any other element of the movie. His music was by turns stirring, sublime, majestic, mysterious and beautiful. Mostly, Goldsmith’s music evoked the Star Trek ideal, whilst the rest of the movie failed to capture the flavour of the Trek universe, in my opinion.

2) STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN movie **1/2 score ****

A wonderful, and somewhat different follow-up score from Horner. The movie also went some way to recreating the fun attitude of the original series.

3) STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK movie *1/2 score ***1/2

Again, exquisite work from Horner, here relying heavily on Prokofiev and others, and the score is all the better for it.

4) STAR TREK V: THE FINAL FRONTIER movie * score ***

Goldsmith returned, armed with his famous TMP themes. Shatner tried with this movie, but ultimately failed, I felt. However, Goldsmith went beyond the call of duty in an attempt to keep the movie afloat.

5) STAR TREK VI: THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY movie **1/2 score ***

A worthy score to a good entry in the series.

6) STAR TREK: INSURRECTION movie *** score **1/2

My favourite Star Trek movie, if only because it attempted, with some success, to inject a little more substantial humour into the proceedings. Goldsmith’s score had some memorable highlights, but again he avoids using his wonderful TMP themes with any real conviction, I believe. It really would be nice if he recycled his ‘The Enterprise’ from TMP.

7) STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME movie **1/2 score *1/2

A success at the box office.

8) STAR TREK GENERATIONS movie * score *1/2

9) STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT movie **1/2 score *

A solid movie.

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Originally posted by MWRuger:
All I can say is that I waited ten years for the Star Trek: The Motion Picture, having watched the show as a child and through the years in syndication and I was bitterly disappointed by its languid pace and concentration on fantastic visuals at the expense of the characters.

None of the characters behaved as they should and a bunch of epic shots of weird stuff is not Star Trek. It is about the characters, not the sets.

That is why Wrath of Khan is much better. It is about everything that happens to people and how they change and what they stand for. It is the quintessential Star Trek movie against which all others MUST be judged. It was not only good Star Trek, but also a good story. In my opinion, this did not happen again until First Contact where Picard has to face his darker side and his need for revenge against the Borg. It forces him to think about what is really important.

Don't believe me? Consider this: They spent the next two films getting the characters right back to where they were at the start of Wrath of Kahn. Star Trek V was bogged down by a hopelessly bad script and by William Shatner’s attempt at directing comedy. Star Trek VI was better, but they were really starting show the aging and they all seemed tired. Generations was not bad, but it was mostly recycled Next Generation stuff. (They even used some of the same effects shots they used on the series) Insurrection was a very long Next Generation episode lacking the courage to make major changes that might hurt the franchise.

As for the scores, they are both fabulous, but completely different. STMP is majestic and stirring and WOK is tense and full of great action cues. But I have to give the edge to STMP just because Jerry Goldsmith didn’t recycle it into every score he did after that!

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Originally posted by soundwave:
Couldn't put it better myself! Well I couldn't but I totally agree. Hey we need an expanded TWOK sdtk for '07. It will be the 25th anniversary.

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I sound SO nerdy reading this FIVE YEARS LATER!!!! It's like a diary I found and I'm like...when did I have the time to THINK of all this stuff much less to WRITE about it???

Showed my girlfriend The Motion Picture...she fell asleep...literally.

Put on Khan and she just said no after about 10 minutes.

Its too long and drags in spots

the uncut version is worse even-more dragging

The pluses of it though are the great score and it resembles the TV series somewhat with spots of good to great in places. Not enough to make it a great film overall.

My favorite film of the bunch is the fourth one about the whales. It has more of the TV series feel and has a good story that movies a long with some humor in there. The score is so-so.

Khan is my second fav film, but I dont care much for Horners score.

My third one would be the TMP no 1 film.

then no five which is kinda dumb, but I like parts of it

three or four are the same to me.

The others I have only seen bits and pieces of so I dont rate them here.

Of all the scores I rate them this way

ST TMP 1.
ST V 2.
the other three Goldsmiths
Horners next
and Rosenmans last

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Originally posted by meegle:
Wow...what a time capsule THIS is.

I sound SO nerdy reading this FIVE YEARS LATER!!!! It's like a diary I found and I'm like...when did I have the time to THINK of all this stuff much less to WRITE about it???

Showed my girlfriend The Motion Picture...she fell asleep...literally.

Put on Khan and she just said no after about 10 minutes.

Harsh!!!!

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You need a new girlfriend.....

Oh well.

My new girlfriend is cool..just not a big Start Trek fan.

It would be the second film behind IV for me with the STMP third.

01. II The Wrath Of Khan
02. IV The Voyage Home
03. VI The Undiscovered Country
04. VIII First Contact
05. III The Search For Spock
06. IX Insurrection
07. V The Final Frontier
08. VII Generations
09. The Motion Picture
10. X Nemesis

The film "most" like the Original Series, IMO, is Star Trek V in a lot of ridiculous and obvious ways, but it also has one of the best scores; Star Trek has been blessed over the years with tremendous music! And now, scores...

01. The Motion Picture
02. II The Wrath Of Khan
03. V The Final Frontier
04. VIII First Contact
05. VI The Undiscovered Country
06. III The Search For Spock
07. X Nemesis
08. IX Insurrection
09. IV The Voyage Home
10. VII Generations

...But those are just all too close together it's crazy to even list them like that. The only "weak" moments are with Generations and The Voyage Home (which, has a great theme, but doesn't hold up overall, albumwise).

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Originally posted by meegle:
C'mon! Search for Spock is higher than that scorewise!

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haha! Well that's why it's really kind of impossible to rate the Trek scores on a 1 to 10 scale, like The Undiscovered Country should probably be higher, too. Search For Spock has some of Horner's best cues he's ever written, unfortunately unreleased, like "A Fighting Chance To Live."

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Originally posted by meegle:
I know there are boots for TMP. Do boot versions exist for any of the other trek scores?

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