There is lots of greed amongst our fellow collectors...some people buy this stuff to fill a place on a shelf.

Have to proudly say that I play EVERYTHING I get all the time, even the crap(gotta give that stuff a chance sometimes).
There are plenty of boots out there I don't care about since the music sounds worthless to me(a 2CD FIFTH ELEMENT???Are you kidding?).

If it's a good composer or score though...I'm all for it.
Just a shame some people can't be honest.
And I don't have a burner either, so I have to rely on the kindness of strangers also...

yet when I get one, I wholly intend to return the favor!!

I hear you and can agree to some degree. For instance I would love to buy the "Spacecamp"cd by John Williams which is one of my absolute favorites. Yet I can't bring myself to paying $199.00 for the cd. So I have a cdr of the score, yet I still want the orininial because I love the score so much. I am not rich however and just can't afford that kind of price. So I suffer and am at least happy I have the cdr from a very gracious memeber here.

I agree that if you make a trade you must stick by it. There are precious few individuals on this board I will trade with, first because I am not a very trusting person to begin with second because I do not own a cdr either and thus it takes some time for me to get the copies made which the people I do trade with understand and thus won't get the impression that I am trying to cheat them or anything.

I hope this does not cause you to abandon the board for you are an important member here with lots of information and much to say that makes the board what it is. You give our board a certain personality that it needs and that would be missed.

So, if you thought about leaving I hope you would reconsider.

For everyone who feels they been cheated, and honestly can say they've never cheated anybody themselves, start circulating names. Actually, don't circulate names, people tend to get mad when they see their names on a public forum. Start circulating email addresses. Let people know the person behind this email address is a cheater and isn't into this for the music.

I am not asking you to be mean spirited, I am asking you to lay down the facts that prove there is mistrust. Leave your feelings aside, and just mention the realities and facts.

If there needs to be one place were people can come together because they love music and love sharing, let it be this place. There are a lot of good people here, and we need to help each other to keep it that way.

Not meaning to open a can of worms, but the untrustworthy must be unmasked!

Needless to say, I'm sure these scoundrels are out there, but don't get jaded. I think the majority of us simply love movie music and want to share with one and all.

I've only been on this board for a couple months and I've made contact with some nice people. As for trading, I've just started, and my side of the trade hasn't even arrived at the other guy's end yet (it's on its way, Mark!) but I have every reason to believe I'm going to carry on trading and meet many more good people here. I'm getting a CDR deck soon (Christmas prezzie) and, as I've already mentioned to a couple of people, I will be happy to make copies of ANYTHING I have in my collection (it's pretty large) if people just send me a blank CDR and enough return postage (trading CD for CD is great but people don't always have something I want). What's in it for me? Well ... maybe I'm strange, but I just think it's cool sharing what I have with people who love this music as much as I do. I'll make that same offer to you, HT - in fact, to anyone here. E-mail me and I'll send you my CD and LP list. I can make cassette and minidisc copies until my burner's up and running.

One of the things I personally hate about trading (besides being ripped off, which hasn't happened yet) is people asking for VERY SPECIFIC CDs in exchange for great stuff they have - often asking for things that are harder to find than the Ark of the Covenant. Meanwhile that great stuff is just sitting there on their shelves, never being heard by anyone, and it never will be. I just think this music we all love should have a life beyond our own little worlds. That's what this community is - and should be - all about.

"I hate to say this isn't so and if we were true music lovers, we wouldn't be bragging or rubbing it in other people's faces as to how we get this stuff."

Danny, not to bring this up in a disrespectful manner, but you are being something of a hypocrite. I remember a time when you posted at the "What's New In Your Collection" threads and listed all kinds of things that most people couldn't get their hands on. I understand that the "market" has dried up somewhat, and it isn't as fun to trade as it used to be (it went from, "Whoa! 96 minute First Knight!" to "Whoa! Expanded Link........all ri.....ugh."), but still---you were one of the purveyors of the very things that you now hate.

You guys know that Hard Target is Danny Gonzalez, right?

If there is one person to NEVER, EVER trade with, it would be Jeff Johns (aka The New Film Score Sounds, Mancinafan, or JJ Logan). How long have I been warning people to not trade with him? And since I (and many others) started, how many MORE people have been screwed over?

Anyway.......

You know I might just have to hold you to that.... you fellow Goldsmith enthusiast you!

I don't know what happened with the trade we had. Yes, we had decided to trade CDR's for tapes because I don't have a CDR machine. He sent me his side of the trade. Now here is where I have to defend myself and ask for your trust, because I know it's his word against mine and that puts me in a bad spot. I honestly DID send him the tapes that I made for him, and when he wrote me saying he didn't get them, I honestly sent him out another batch.
Now, I don't know what happened after I mailed them, but I did mail them.

In my email that I just sent him, I stated that I am willing to re-do the tapes again, and mail them out again, to clear my name. Because I am not a bad trader, nor am I a conman or untrustworthy person. I love film music as much as the next guy, and I love to share it and trade it as much as anyone here.
I have gotten my shares of scumbags in the past as well, I have gotten ripped off. One time I got coned out of alot of money (back when I was paying for trades). So why why why WHY would I do that to anyone?
I am a good person, and not a con man.
And I hate having to see my name dragged through the sea of bad names, because it doesn't belong there!
I honestly do not know what happened with this trade, but I did not intend to rip anyone off. After I hadn't heard from him, I just assumed that he had gotten his tapes.
Anyway, I just feel as though I have to say this now, to defend myself.

I am NOT a Jeffrey Johns!!!!!!

I am a good trader, and good honest person.

I hope that you can understand the position that I was just thrusted into!!!

Well, I offered him to re-do these tapes. I hope that when these get sent out to him, that he will release my name from this muck.

I have no idea what happens when a person claims to have mailed something either.
but when I give my mailing address to someone, it doesn't take that long for stuff to arrive. The first batch didn't arrive, I emailed a few months afterwards. said a 2nd batch was on its way. didn't arrive, so I brushed it off and chalked it up to a screw job (rightly or wrongly) and moved on, and got CDRs from someone else.

This quite possibly does not accurately reflect on John the trader. This was simply my experience.
I just don't know.
Yours was just name I remembered out the past.

I called it like I saw it.

So let me explain:

It seemed WAY too coincidental to me that a person on ebay using the name madcity7726 just happened to have auctioned off nearly every CDR title I had traded to Hard Target, not long after I had sent them. Here are some facts: the username on ebay has changed from onefineday96 to reindeergames2677 to currently madcity7726 (all of which I know HT is a huge fan of), plus the person uses an aol address (and we all know how many usernames you can have with them), plus the person lives in New York (as is Hard Target), plus, from his auction listings, has indicated he is very excited about the upcoming Spiderman movie (as is Hard Target who uses Spiderman as one of his email aliases on aol) and, if the email name can be interpreted as a birthdate (77 = 1977, 2 and 6 possibly representing a month and day) and it just so happens that person would be 23 years old (as Hard Target is according to his profile) I deduced that this person was indeed Hard Target. Circumstantial evidence? Certainly. Why did I have an issue with what was being sold on ebay? Because what was being auctioned made it seem as though what was being sold was true promotional material when it was only a CDR. If it's not HT, then there sure are a lot of strange coincidences and he's apparently been framed.

but then again, if the person is paying the money and says nothing, then they deserve to be duped out of their money.
"Complete 2CD" TPM's were selling on eBay awhile back, and I had to tell a few people they were being screwed. One person replied and thanked me for alerting them. I guess the others got hornswaggled.

and it's also grating that eBay, while having a piracy policy, doesn't do a thing about illegitimate copies being sold, claiming that while yes they do have a policy, they cannot follow up on it.

NP -- The Insider, Gerrard/ Revell/ Bourke

ND -- Michelob Black & Tan dark lager, good stuff dude

The person who traded the score was doing so in the spirit of trading. If this is where it stopped, there would be no big issues. But we all know it will show up at Screen Archives as a lame-ass CDR bootleg selling for $28 plus shipping. So should this be considered heroic? Gouging movie music fans for something that is made for pure profit? For $28-$35 we probably COULD have an expanded score to nearly anything! Hell, the composer may as well just send them to Craig and get part of the profits! And didn't it ever make you wonder why these cheesy CDR bootlegs seem to ALWAYS show up at SAE first? Things that make you go hmmm....

By the way, you don't see me bragging about things I have that I'm not trading, although Jeff Johns seems to like to do this on his site (see Komodo). I totally agree that's pointless. I wish it all COULD be traded, but as seen recently at SAE, nothing is sacred. Some vulture will come along and sell it to a bootleg shop and it's all downhill from there. So look at the picture this paints:

a) movie scores keep getting bootlegged so why should a label WANT to sink money into producing any special editions (latest victim: 20,000 Leagues under the Sea by Paul J. Smith which was about to be released legit, liner notes already written, until the recent boot came out), since, more times than not...

b) score fans are never satisfied with what they get. Episode I's first release didn't have all the music that was in the film. A release of the music "as heard in the film" is released and there's a petition aimed at Sony about how bad it sucks! Countless other scores get released, only to hear complaints that "the best cue wasn't on the disc!" which may be true, but since it's all subjective, who's right? Hmm, tough crowd...

c) these score fans will pay $28 for a score that's unreleased, but most scores that ARE released struggle to sell more than 3000 copies at HALF that price! Why release anything at all?

d) score fans then bitch about not getting a score release to (fill-in-the-blank) but when it does get released, they'll bitch because it's not complete, or if it is complete or issued as a limited edition, they'll then bitch because it's too expensive! So...

e) score fans suffer because the labels want no part of score releases because (start back at a)

And remember, circulate the names of others ONLY if you are clean of misleading or wrongful activities of your own.

Please guys, let's be honest and civil.

Some years ago when Elmer Bernstein was running his filmmusic collection and issuing LP re-records of scores, he made a deal with Warner Records to issue some of the scores to the public.

People who had been buying LPs direct from him got pissed--they were sad to see stuff that they thought only they were getting made available to others.

There is a thing among some collectors where having something someone else doesn't is all important.

They gloat and hoarde and parade it in front of people and refuse to make it available (I imagine these are the same narcissistic SOBs who also buy big cars or intimidating clothes, get pissed when someone cuts 'em off in traffic, and who need to feel superior to other people at any cost). They are absolutely free to do this of course. But I doubt they have many friends. I'm not one.

There are those who are faithful in trades but whose quirks and personality faults make the deals more trying than they need to be.

There are some who make their finds available as tapes or CDRs or boots even but at outrageous prices. This is actually a great service but the high prices are prohibitive.

Just the same, there are members on the board like Stephen Lister or Mark Hatfield who are completely generous with their collections and time and ask for little or nothing in return. There are others like Majestyx who charge but take great care to produce a great product at a reasonable price so that no bitter taste remains after the deal.

I have been screwed in many trades and worse I have screwed some people.

A few years back I became ill rather suddenly and did not complete trades with two individuals. I lost one man's address and he has never received his goods and I've felt pretty guilty about it ever since. In a third case, someone gave me a number of CDs free, saying he was going to quit collecting. Later, he asked for them back after I'd sold or traded them. Having had something similar happen to me in the past, I felt terrible, but I didn't feel obligated to meet his demands either.

There are other things that make me the less than perfect trade partner. I do not yet own a CDR burner, which has kept me from making a lot of trades with people. I trade tapes for tapes or CDRs but can't return CDRs which I often feel isn't a just trade. Also, some of the material I have to trade isn't in the best shape. It's the best I have, but it doesn't match up to some standards. I try to tell people this and have been even more forthcoming about it since I've taken some criticism, but I cannot make everyone happy.

I trade with a number of people on this board and I hope that everyone has been more or less satisfied with the trades. Certainly I completed them. I even have taken the risk of sending out first to complete strangers (as Hard Target should know personally).

I agree with Hard Target that taking the risks and waiting for people to come through or not come through is agonizing and frustrating. I understand that some people don't want to be bothered to trade or find it a big chore and won't do it unless for a price or some other kind of profit and that's OK. The real villians are the rip-off artists who know from the start they aren't coming through.

I hope Hard Target is just venting steam and isn't planning anything drastic, but that's up to him.

Lastly, Johnnyecks, send out a third batch certified, get a tracking number, make sure someone signs for it to receive it or it comes back to you.

np The Blue Max

I've also dealt with Hard Target many times, and nearly every time, each trade has been a good one. Those that weren't were resolved quickly.

The falling-out HT and I appear to have was started by accident. I was going to bid on a PRHNOMENON promo on ebay, only to find after some checking of feedback and past auctions, that what he was selling was stuff that I had traded to HT in the past, as chronicled in a previous post. The person is from the same place as, uses the same ISP as, appears to have the exact same interests as, and was auctioning the same items I had traded to HT. What would be your conclusion? Needless to say, I didn't bid on the item, figuring I'd end up with something I had traded in the past. So, no, I don't look into people's "history" unless I'd have reason to. I felt I did, since one should always know about anyone they are about to send money to. If this is wrong, I don't wanna be right.

I have forgiven anything that John owed me a long time ago.

I am a little responsible here. for one thing, I didn't know he posted here at all under that user name. Second, I felt compelled to name people who I felt screwed me over, which given the circumstance, was a legitmate concern to me. Third, I'm just not gonna mess with it anymore. I have most or all the scores that were to be traded now.

he has kindly offered to ftp mp3s of the scores to me, but as I have no cable modem and/ or time to download with a dial-up, I have respectfully declined.

-------------------------------

is that guy that used to post at FSM called "deepbluesea" still around? I got screwed only in the effort this guy put out.
he would demand you make ALL the inserts, color, inside liner notes, and if it had a clear try with a picture, that too. and then he would send you the CDRs but with no track titles, or any artwork.
So you see, this is also very annoying. don't demand something from me, if you are not going to reciprocate.

there is a cable available at Radio Shack that allows you to transfer tapes to cdr (from the cassette player to your computer) using the headphone jack of your player and the line in jack in your soundcard. I have it and it works perfectly. If you need more info just e-mail me. This way you can make lots and lots of copies of Hoosiers.

That said, there's an awful lot of competition going on out there for what seems to me to be pretty mediocre recordings...in terms of sound quality and music quality. But that's just me.

Majestyx commented that boots are out there at $28 a pop and people snatch those up, but don't buy out a batch of 3,000 of one title released legitimately.

Why? Should I really go into this? Maybe...just MAYBE...that "title" isn't something anyone much wants to have.

I'm sorry...but a few people thinking how "kewl" it would be to release this goofy title of a lousy movie with a hack-work score is not good business sense. If it sells, oh, well! If it doesn't, don't throw it into the face of collectors.

Yes, I'll buy an Alfred Newman, a Franz Waxman, a Miklos Rozsa or whatever "promo" or boot for $28 because I know I want to hear their music.

So...why should a stereo boot of "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" outsell a title like "The Comancheros"?

Maybe people feel they have enough Elmer Bernstein western scores. Pile that title upon a slew of other western scores immediatley preceding it and the whole genre begins to suck bigtime when it comes to deciding whether to spend money on the latest western or something totally different and unique.

This has always been a volatile issue, but the bottom line is this: The bootleggers know what people want and have mediocre to very good source material. Yes, they're ripping off the copyright holders. Yes, they're making an obscene profit with minimal outlay of funds. Yes, they probably do take business away from legitimate CD producers.

Let the latter, however, be aware that if their well-produced product doesn't sell, then maybe the product is worthless to the bulk of the buyers.

Something to chew on.......

Which comes back to why bother to release anything at all? It makes more business sense to "lose" income on something you haven't produced (it's only lost in the sense that it hasn't been paid royalties) than to produce something and take a real loss on it by no one purchasing it.

"And to Shaun Rutherford, my hypocracy can only go so far, and it will go even further since I'm on the spot right. I thought you were becoming really cool again but you ain't..and thanks for revealing my name by the way that was really classy of you. Really classy."

Putting personal attacks aside, let me just say that your name is on your profile (also on your profile, a totally out of place, profanity-laced monologue from Glengarry Glen Ross), and if you were trying to hide your identity, good job. Also, JJ----Hard Target and deepbluesea are the same person. Go figure.

Hard Target also went on to key in these words:

"So screw you."

Is my anger toward you unfounded, Hard? I ask you that. We traded with an agreement. You broke that agreement. Is this not true?

First, thanks to Mark O, for saying good things about me. I'd like to think that between him, Logied, John Winfrey, Gaijin 51, Rang, and others I could put out a resume with references.

Pete M--You bring up something that many people seem to respond to, the issue of listening to music vs being a collector or having a collector's mentality. I knew comic book collectors who never read the comics they bought--they went straight into bags and it was more the ownership or investment that interested them. I'm sure there are film music collectors like that too.

Others--Yes, collectors can be very touchy and impossible to satisfy. I'm one to an extreme degree (just hear me talk about most re-records) and I've known others more picky than me, real princess and the pea types who needed perfect sound, remastering, cover designs, etc.

I remember when Lukas Kendall told me about the then upcoming Rhino release of North By Northwest. I said great. He said, but the Mt. Rushmore section is damaged. I said, but Mt. Rushmore is the best cue of the score. And he blew up at me. If any cue was damaged or missing you'd say that was the best cue of the score. And I said, no I wouldn't, I'd be sad to loose any, hurt to lose say Crash of the Cropduster, but Mt. Rushmore really IS the best cue of the score.

But this may be an exception to the rule. Everyone has their ideal. I'm sure great sound, complete scores, cheap prices are the direction people want but they can't always get it that way. They should be satisfied with what they can get, but often aren't, me included. Producing soundtracks must be a bitch because you're more likely to get flak over praise for whatever you do because the needs and tastes of the public are so extreme or esoteric. Now other people can complain about the nit-picky people, but I don't see how you can avoid them in this particular market.

I support a black market for a number of reasons.

But first, it's kind of funny in a way that this topic is about being screwed in a trade over what is probably illegal material to begin with. It's an honor among thieves scenario where one criminal is complaining that another criminal did him wrong. I don't like it either but the whole black market thing has risks.

In any case, union costs do make it difficult to get legit versions made and yet a demand still exists for the scores. Some scores may seem ridiculous to put out or to charge for, but that's up to the bootlegger. He puts out what he can get or what he thinks he can sell and why people buy is up to them.

I'm told I should dislike boots because they keep legit companies from issuing scores. I say that's crap. Marnie got booted on CD so Varese said they wouldn't issue the original tracks in stereo. Instead they issued a re-record with poor performance that they shouldn't have bothered to put out at all. They should have just issued the original anyway--I would have bought it, I'm sure a lot of people with the Tsunami or older LP would have too. I've been sitting on a tape of 20, 000 Leagues for 5 years now but I'd have bought a legit CD of it had it been issued.

Lou, I've heard your words before, "I'm told I should dislike boots because they keep legit companies from issuing scores." This is baloney. I thought this statement had substance once, but it's complete BS. The real reason everyone should stay away from boots is because it causes very threads like this. That's as simple as I can make it.

I have bought, traded and sold LPs, tapes, CDs, etc since 1979 into the thousands and of all those only a very few have been unsatisfactory. In fact, I can name all those who did not come through, and seemed unconcerned about it:

1. Steve Vanghel in Houston, TX stole 12 dollars

2. Steve Harris in LA, kept 24 and did not send the CDs

neither seemed too interested in doing anything about it.

Of all the taping exchanges, I have never had any problems and if I excected any I did not do it. For example, a very demanding fellow overseas. I decided not to risk it because of his overall attitude.

There are many good contacts that I have around the world and all are honorable and trustworthy.

I know most of you will probably not want to see me my name appear on this thread anymore in fear that it'll become a "hot under the collar" post.
When in fact, it isn't going to be that at all.

I just wanted to comment on some things that have been said!

Quill said
<I am certain there must be some explanation to your trading debacle, but you have to expect the reaction. It is rather rare for multiple shipments (let alone one!) to the same address to be lost. I'm not accusing you of anything, but that's the old cliche..."oh that, yeah I put in the mail." I think I used that line with this pseudo-girlfriend of mine when I was in the 8th grade...off topic....anyway, if your expecting something, it doesn't come, and that tne answer you get...you should expect some hostility>

You're absolutely right. I do indeed expect hostitlity, which I got! But (I think) a YEAR, afterwards? I don't want to get into it again, cause I don't like to nitpick but after not recieving another email I had expected that they arrived.

JJH said
<This quite possibly does not accurately reflect on John the trader. This was simply my experience. I just don't know. Yours was just name I remembered out the past. I called it like I saw it.>

Thank you for those words! It was just a fluke that they didn't show up. I wish I could've known what happened!! But I did try to make good on the deal. Granted, it is understood that you wouldn't take me up on the offer, but since I am 'new' to this board I feel as though I must comment because I would like to start trades again and I don't want people to think that I'm a screwjob right from the getgo. I would like to have a chance to show people here that I am a good trader, and will make good on all of my trades!

Okay, with that done......

Today, I am going out and buying a CD Burner (finally), so I will be able to trade cdrs for cdrs and no longer trading tapes for cdrs!!!! I have been out of the trading loop for awhile, due to me opening up a family business, but I would like to jump right into the thick of it again!!

I still don't have access to a color printer (albeit a GOOD one) nor do I have a scanner, so I can't do covers (again...albeit a GOOD cover), but I can offer just a plain ole cdr copy of anything you want!!

So, if anyone is interested in what I have to offer, please let me know! I would love to start some trades again!! That way possibly, my name would be added onto the "good trader" call sheet!!!!!

Well folks, take it easy and I hope to hear from you soon!!!

- John

When I do get one (and scores worth trading that everybody else doesn't have) then I'll be more then happy to share. Untill then its MP3s for me. *pout*. Anybody wanna donate to the New Computer for Aaron fund?
All I need is about $1500...