link removed (the thread has concluded! i need web space!)

Jeron

I do think the classical piece is beautiful, though. And neither piece is better than the other, I don't think... they are equally wonderful works.

I wonder why Jeron even bothered to bring up this topic if he didn't want to be accused of accusing Goldsmith of some sort of theft.

We'll just chalk that up to "Film music sucks anymore."

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Originally posted by Shaun Rutherford:
who gives a hoot right now?

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I certainly don't... Goldsmith's theme remains as one of my very favorites (accompanied by a show I really loved). Scott, I don't think it's coincidence, as Goldsmith has more than likely heard this, but as Shaun said, who gives a hoot? I feel as if I'm being redundant by saying this, but I simply found the similarity astonishing and wanted to present it to my friends here at Moviemusic.com. It's neat and interesting, regardless.

And Wedge, as much as I'd love to satisfy your curiosity, I have absolutely no clue what this piece is titled. Perhaps one of our classical aficionados can help us out -- JJ or Marian?

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Originally posted by Jeron:
And Wedge, as much as I'd love to satisfy your curiosity, I have absolutely no clue what this piece is titled. Perhaps one of our classical aficionados can help us out -- JJ or Marian?

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After listening to it for like 10 times, I can't believe this is an original classical piece. You're sure this is not some classical adaptation of Goldsmith's theme?

If this was composed before Goldsmith, then I have to say shame on him. I really enjoy his music, but I can't tolerate blatant copying when it comes to music. I don't mean just a vague theme interpolated differently; this is EXACTLY the Star Trek: Voyager theme, played in a slower fashion. The accompaniment may differ ever so slightly, but it's the same notes (as far as my vaguely-trained ear can be trusted).

If there is a connection, it's a positive one - a patently (perhaps undeservedly) obscure piece of music may have been adapted and placed someplace where it was heard (and appreciated) by millions of people. Any outrage perpetrated against some brittle aesthetic*, if not imaginary, is so deftly crafted as to be a fillip.

On the Korngold/Williams scale, this is about a 1.01. (Or for those who are using the Zimmer/Holst scale: 0.00025.)

Noting a similarity can be interesting (my pet "discovery": compare Anakin's Theme and 'Mother's Lullaby' from Bliss's Miracle in the Gorbals), but this bleating over phantom intellectual property (loathsome expression!) curdles my mood.

anyhoo, I've decided that this is most definitely a romantic era horn concerto.

but of the soundclips I've been able to hear online so far, none of them are even in the same key as this clip Jeron provided, and even some of the orchestral accompanimnt is inconsistent. So, I've also decided that it's not a Strauss horn concerto.

I'm trying to find a clip of Paul Hindemith's Horn Concerto to see if it holds up to scrutiny.

The one problem I have is that I need a longer version of this soundclip.

Which begs the question:

where the hell did you get the clip and NOT know what it was?

but I've also got to try to find a piece that may use the horn as a character, much as say, Berlioz used the viola in Harold in Italy.

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Originally posted by JJH:
this is barely the Voyager theme.

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Finally, someone agrees with me.

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Originally posted by JJH:
where the hell did you get the clip and NOT know what it was?

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Indeed.

I'm sorry, but taking a piece of classical music, transposing it from minor to major mode, augmenting the tempo, and redistributing the instrumentation ever so slightly is blatant copying. And, not to make any enemies here, but are some people deaf? It is not barely the STAR TREK: VOYAGER theme; it IS the theme. It's in minor mode (hence the melancholic beauty), but listen carefully and you'll see that the two are the same. The main theme is the same, and even the middle ascending part (as the ship goes over the planet, with Robert Duncan McNeill's credit), is the same. The string accompaniment is strikingly similar. These two pieces aren't cousins; they're twins.

And I have to say I do find it annoying that people are easy to say that Horner is a fraud but that Goldsmith is a genius. Don't get me wrong: I think Horner *is* a fraud, and I love Goldsmith's music, but it's frankly quite childish to let one composer go on accusations of blatant copy but not the other, just because you happen to prefer one composer over the other.

And, it's also childish to pick a fight on an issue where the point of comparison is, as of yet, UNKNOWN! :) Jeron! Where did you get this?

Anyway, just my two Canadian cents, as always,

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Originally posted by Kosh:
Jeron! Where did you get this?

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I was searching for some classical music on LimeWire and this came up, identified as "Strauss / Voyager." I didn't quite know what to think, and the title intrigued me, so I decided to download it. I'm by no means a classical guru, so I can't place the style. Just going by the title. Knowing LimeWire, Napster, etc, it's easy to assume that whomever titled it could have been mistaken. Regardless, it is what it is.

Steve, I see what you are saying (regarding exoneration), and call me a dumb mule, but for some reason Goldsmith doing this (if in fact he did it) doesn't bother me one bit. Horner's blatant rip on Enemy at the Gates, yes, bothers me. But it was functional in the film. Zimmer admits to using Mars - so no biggie. That was intentional.

"Not to be confused with Johann, Richard Strauss was a leader ofthe German avant-garde during the late Romantic era of the nineteenth century. Why? Because he dared to diverge from the classical norm to compose music that tells a story and started something aking to a musical civil war in the process.

"Tone Poems" sounded terribly dry, a term cooked up by some fusty music theorist, until we learned that Strauss chose it to stress his use of music (tone) to express a poetic idea (poem). And poetic these three pieces are, lavish tributes to universal heroes and myths, stories that unfold in purely musical terms, complemented on the CD by lush illustrations. Above all, Romantic music celebrates the individual and his heroic quest; one section offers musical comparisons of "yearning" in Wagner, Strauss, and Mahler. Another favorite compares themes from such Hollywood classics as Robin Hood, Gone with the Wind, and Superman with the Strauss compositions that inspired them. Strauss was a master of orchestral effects as well as a superb storyteller. We appreciated the way Three Tone Poems illuminates both aspects of his enormous talent. As we learned, our imagination was completely engaged.

To order this title from
the New Voyager Online Store:
Click Here"

So, "Three Tone Poems" by Richard Strauss were released by a Voyager company.
http://www.voyagerco.com

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Originally posted by Kosh:
I don't know of any piece called "Voyager" by any Strauss

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I didn't mean to say that the piece itself was entitled "Voyager." I think the title was inferring the similarity, as it was (more specifically) labelled (on LimeWire), "Strauss-StarTrekVoyager." Hope that clears things up.

Anyway... unless someone can recognize it, I guess we'll be in the dark for a while.

BTW, I do think I have good ears. The piece has a lot of difference with Goldsmith's although no doubt similar. But it ain't the same piece note by note.

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Originally posted by Scott:
But it ain't the same piece note by note.

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Maybe so...but only because those two aspired to the heights they did after taking a page from him! [Aside from this, I'm still trying to identify Goldsmith's rip-offs of those composers' specific styles--I just don't hear it at all of Williams....]

Hear that terrible demo of "You Only Live Twice?" Wonder what Goldsmith's The Sand Pebbles had to do with the departure?

Surely one hears Williams' style in Goldsmith's 60's work and other such things as The Great Train Robbery. (What would Williams have done in the 80's without it?)

Lastly, does it really matter? Is film music supposed to be truly original? I don't advocate a Hornerian Enemy at the Gates approach, but, all the same, film has to communicate to an audience on its level. I'm not sure how a picture's script does this without a reliance on linguistics, and, furthermore, I'm not sure how a score does this without a relative dependence upon certain musical conventions and precedents.

None-too-subtle attempt at sarcasm: Jerry is a thief, though. Clearly, he stole his use of all of the notes from every composer who has ever used them before him. Bastard!!!

Beyond my own curiousity to know who's responsible for the piece, it's neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally posted by SPQR:
I would say this however, why has it taken so long for this so-called Strauss piece to show up?

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