You noted in Track 18, "Samwise the Brave" at
2:56 - "Eerie music with punctuated blasts of brass as Gollum considers killing the hobbits."

After several listenings, I was struck by the key change and heavy, plodding tones (contrabassoon?) and suddenly felt I was being stalked by a monstrous spider.

I am guessing this is a hint of Shelob's Theme as Gollum is saying that "She" can take care of those nassssty Hobbitses!

Anyway, someone earlier asked what "The Missing" is featured in. It is featured in "Helm's Deep" I found this information at
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_soundtrack.htm

I just got back from seeing the movie again (probably my last time until it is released on DVD . I guess six trips to the movie is enough, but I still want to see it more!)
Anyway, the music on track 14 (1:55-3:58) is not used in the movie at all. Though it would fit perfectly where Elrond is telling Arwen what will happen if she chooses Aragorn. It is possible that Shore originally scored the music present on the soundtrack for that scene and later cut it out. Or we may see it used in another scene on the extended DVD.

this is a cool list - with the minor changes and such, does anyone have a chronological cue list derived from this, so people can put the ost in order?

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Originally posted by Eruname:
Wow...that is awesome. How in the world did you do that without being able to own the movie? I do pay attention to the music and remember what scenes most of it corresponds with, but I must admit that TTT swept me away at times. I couldn't just concentrate on the music. The scenery, acting, music, etc was just too awesome (I'm a big Tolkien geek!)

Anyway, someone earlier asked what "The Missing" is featured in. It is featured in "Helm's Deep" I found this information at
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_soundtrack.htm

Has anybody found the lyrics to "Evenstar" or "Breath of Life"? It would be really nice to be able to sing along...not just hum.

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Marian--your response makes sense, and in retrospect I suppose the theme was used appropriately.

Another question though--in my mind there are almost to seduction of the ring themes. One plays for Gollum and Bilbo in Fellowship and the other for Boromir, Aragorn, and Faramir in both films. I believe it was suggested the first theme, primarily accompanying the appearance of Gollum in the first film is the root for Gollum's Song? Is this true...I don't hear much similarity, though my untrained ear may simply be missing it. If it is not related, then I find it strange that this theme was left out of Two Towers. With Gollum getting so much screen time, it would have made sense to include it. This might have been debated to death in some other thread--if so, sorry for be redundant.

The theme heard for Gollum in film one is the Pity of Gollum Theme. When Bilbo displays Gollum-like traits, this theme is either combined with the Shire music or played outright. The Pity theme appears through the majority of the Gollum scenes in TT, though varied and and twisted into all sorts of shapes. (As stated by others, Gollum also gets his cimbalom music in Two Towers, primarily to represent the side of him that is not piteous—-the side that is a greedy, murderous river Hobbit.)

The Pity of Gollum theme is also combined with the History of the Ring music in Two Towers because the two have such an intertwined past. You’ll notice that the Ring is rarely related to a history prior to Gollum in Two Towers, so the History theme is usually combined with the Pity of Gollum Theme when it appears. This also masks some of the Pity melody and makes it a bit harder to recognize.

The Pity of Gollum theme does form the basis for Gollum’s Song, though more through a certain vein of harmony than direct melodic pieces. Gollum’s harmony is pretty unique in the scores—-very loosely related chromatic minor chords.

The theme heard under Boromir, Faramir, etc. is the true Seduction of the Ring theme.

Pretty amazing structure, no?

Interestingly, when I heard the music while watching the DVD (Yes DVD!-I have access to the For Your Consideration Academy Awards DVD pressing) I was surprised to hear the Indian sitars in the background and the vocals performed as a raag style chant.I was quite puzzled and equally impressed by Shores idea for using sitar as an color motif for the Elves. Very interesting indeed. I think Shela Chandra can also be seen holding a sitar in the picture inside the limited edition booklet.

Iam thoroughly enjoying the music and this breakdown article is just great work.

What fun- Cant wait to get to the final part of the saga.

Amer

Amer

[Message edited by azahid on 03-19-2003]

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Originally posted by kianga:
I think I just found a hint at a now-familiar theme from The Return of the King: Listen to "Samwise the Brave", between 2:33 and 2:45.

Maybe I am mistaken, but this sounds to me like the Gondor theme... I also noticed this theme being played during Boromir's speech at the Council of Elrond (only in the movie, though).

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Originally posted by kianga:
I think I just found a hint at a now-familiar theme from The Return of the King: Listen to "Samwise the Brave", between 2:33 and 2:45.

Maybe I am mistaken, but this sounds to me like the Gondor theme... I also noticed this theme being played during Boromir's speech at the Council of Elrond (only in the movie, though).

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
I don't think you're mistaken. I'd never noticed it before, but it does sound like a cousin of the Gondor theme... it also reminds me of Faramir's theme as well for some reason... which is appropriate given the onscreen action at that point... I'm glad I haven't covered this track in my ongoing TTT:EE cue list and analysis (part five is coming BTW after many delays!) as I wouldn't have picked this up otherwise...

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Originally posted by kianga:
I am not very familiar with Faramir's theme... can you point me to some places in the soundtrack where it can be heard? (I know of only one mentioned in Camillu's RotK cue-by-cue: track 14, 0:42-1:43.)

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The Steward of Gondor - 0:16-1:21 - performed for pan flute with choral backdrop. Howard Shore makes the remark on the special edition DVD of the ROTK soundtrack: "I had the idea to use a pan flute...for Faramir. It's sort of a Middle-earth sound because it's so...basic. The pan flute is one of the oldest instruments in the world."

The ascending part of the melody is heard again in 'Ash and Smoke' at 0:10-0:22 as Faramir's horse drags his body back inside the gates of Minas Tirith.

We then hear this melody again in Hope Fails at 0:48-1:42. None of this music actually appears in the film, but it is the same melody (with greater emphasis on the descending phrase) as in 'The Steward of Gondor'.

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
The Steward of Gondor - 0:16-1:21 - performed for pan flute with choral backdrop. Howard Shore makes the remark on the special edition DVD of the ROTK soundtrack: "I had the idea to use a pan flute...for Faramir. It's sort of a Middle-earth sound because it's so...basic. The pan flute is one of the oldest instruments in the world."

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You're probably right. If we take that as Faramir's theme, then I think it's indeed closer to what we hear in "Samwise the Brave" (2:33-2:45). It also makes more sense, considering the action on screen.

I am not sure about the last track you mentioned, though. I can hear the ascending melody in "Ash and Smoke" (0:10-0:22), but not in "Hope Fails" (0:48-1:42). The latter seems rather descending to me, while the part in "The Steward of Gondor" is almost entirely ascending.

I've probably just made it obvious that I have no professional musical background whatsoever - but I still find this highly interesting. :-)

In 'Hope Fails', listen to the incredibly brief snippet: 0:48-0:52, followed by 1:31-1:40. I think that is the ascending part of the theme, and it is much briefer than in The Steward of Gondor, where it occurs at 0:15-0:28, and undergoes some variations between 0:46-1:15. You can hear a rushed version of it in 'Ash and Smoke' at 0:01-0:09. This is the phrase I think that is closest to what we hear in 'Samwise the Brave'.

The descending phrase can be heard in 'The Steward of Gondor at 0:34-0:39, and in 'Hope Fails' at 0:43-0:47, 0:52-0:56, 1:01-1:10, and then in its longest and most plaintive variation at 1:10-1:29.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>
I've probably just made it obvious that I have no professional musical background whatsoever - but I still find this highly interesting. :-)
<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here - I'm not posting here because of my reputed musical knowledge.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1> Thanks for responding!<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for bringing it up in the first place.

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
In 'Hope Fails', listen to the incredibly brief snippet: 0:48-0:52, followed by 1:31-1:40. I think that is the ascending part of the theme, and it is much briefer than in The Steward of Gondor, where it occurs at 0:15-0:28, and undergoes some variations between 0:46-1:15. You can hear a rushed version of it in 'Ash and Smoke' at 0:01-0:09. This is the phrase I think that is closest to what we hear in 'Samwise the Brave'.

The descending phrase can be heard in 'The Steward of Gondor at 0:34-0:39, and in 'Hope Fails' at 0:43-0:47, 0:52-0:56, 1:01-1:10, and then in its longest and most plaintive variation at 1:10-1:29.

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I see (or rather hear) what you mean now. You were already looking at the fine details while I was still trying to figure out the basic melody of the theme.

Faramir's theme is certainly more elusive than the Frodo/Shire or Fellowship theme. But it's very impressive just how far you can take apart this score and still find more interesting details.

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Originally posted by kianga:

Faramir's theme is certainly more elusive than the Frodo/Shire or Fellowship theme. But it's very impressive just how far you can take apart this score and still find more interesting details.

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It reminds me of Aragorn's theme in its subtlety, and also because it does slightly resemble Aragorn's theme in its ascending phrase.

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I read in an interview with Howard Shore that there was going to be a whole book about the Lord of the Rings score, written by Doug Adams. Are there any details available yet (like a release date)? I tried looking for it on Amazon, but to no avail.

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
It reminds me of Aragorn's theme in its subtlety, and also because it does slightly resemble Aragorn's theme in its ascending phrase.

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I agree about the subtlety; until I had read some of the wonderful cue-by-cues posted here by you and Camillu, I had always misinterpreted one of the clearest renditions of Aragorn's theme (the one in "Breath of Life") as another variation of the first 30 seconds of "Foundations of Stone". (And there actually IS such a variation just seconds earlier in the same track.)

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Originally posted by kianga:
It's probably silly, but... these first 30 seconds of "Foundations of Stone" will be burned forever into my mind as, you know, "that moment" when you're sitting in the cinema premiere after one year of waiting and you're finally seeing "The Two Towers" for the first time. :-)

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Nothing silly about responding emotionally to music. Goodness, we hear at moviemusic.com would be the silliest people on Earth were that the case! (Then again maybe we are.)

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
Nothing silly about responding emotionally to music. Goodness, we here at moviemusic.com would be the silliest people on Earth were that the case! (Then again maybe we are.)

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We certainly are. Perhaps "silly" isn't the right word, but you must agree that there is something peculiar about people who spend weeks analyzing cues from a movie score, just for fun. No offense meant, of course--I very much appreciate your and Camillu's work. I'd probably do it myself if I were better at it. :-)

Anyway, I wonder if anyone else is still following our little dialog here, because I'd really like to know what other people consider the most emotional parts in the three LotR scores. And I mean especially those parts that are not totally obvious: the "Lighting of the Beacons" probably blows everyone away, but that isn't really so surprising.

The opening of "Foundations of Stone" aside, I guess for me it would be the flute piece(s) in "The Black Gate Opens" (that's from Return of the King, of course). Especially the first part is brilliant, with a single flute playing in front of those low-booming drums. It fits the images in the movie perfectly - this little moment of peace while all the world around is on the brink of destruction.

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I'd really like to know what other people consider the most emotional parts in the three LotR scores.

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And as for this...

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We certainly are (silly). Perhaps "silly" isn't the right word, but you must agree that there is something peculiar about people who spend weeks analyzing cues from a movie score, just for fun

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Originally posted by Magpie:
The piece that I must listen to if it's coming soon, before I turn off the music is Haldir's death music. A very close second is the music played just after Gandalf's fall.

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Hmm, yes. Gandalf's fall, and the very similar sounding piece at the Grey Havens... I think I like the latter even more.

As for the question "why should we care"...

I think it's a "geek" thing. Most people will buy the soundtrack CD, listen to it a few times, and be perfectly happy with that. But from the day I got my RotK soundtrack CD in early December 2003 until the movie premiere on the 16th, I had it in my CD player every evening. And when you care about something that much, it's almost inevitable that you want to "dig deeper".

Responding to the quote on your web page, it adds to my enjoyment of the music if I can understand it as a form of language. Here's one example:

The ending of the first track on the RotK score CD has this action music with the very recognizable Mordor theme in the background. You don't have to be a geek to notice that, or at least associate it with the attribute "evil". Now this particular part is not in the movie, but judging from the context it was probably meant to play during the fight between Smeagol and Deagol. Okay--so we know there's a fight, and some "evil" action music to go along with.

Then someone posted a comment in Camillu's RotK cue-by-cue thread that this action music is actually a sped-up version of the Seduction theme--and suddenly the whole thing gets a lot more meaning. The Ring is at work here. Two people are fighting over it. And you don't even have to see the movie, you can figure this out just by listening to the music!

If you take this one step further, you can look at the score as a special version of the movie: reduced to the basic themes and emotions, all conveyed through the music. And if you are really familiar with it, you can actually see the movie before your eyes. That's why I am so interested in these cue-by-cue analyses: they help me see it more clearly.

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Originally posted by kianga:
By the way: I hope the words "what [b]other people consider" didn't sound like I wanted to exclude franz_conrad. That was not my intention.
[/B]

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Oh! And I thought you were trying to shut me up! My moments include...

* Wherever Frodo's theme is used. This is the theme we hear at the end of the first two films (and a couple of other places in FOTR), and while a lot of people think of it as a theme for Sam, its use is more often associated with Frodo. It is just a lovely melody.

* Evenstar - particularly the Evenstar melody and the soft oboe rendition of Aragorn's theme in that track. There's a lovely cor anglais performance of the Evenstar motif that appears in the TTT:EE credits.

* Twilight and Shadow - Renee's opening solo piece as Arwen sees her child just wrecks me.

* Symbelmine - beautiful music for a beautiful scene.

* The History of Gondor theme that we hear in Anduril, The White Tree, and at Lothlorien in FOTR:EE.

* Gandalf's Fall (aka The Bridge of Khazad-dhum), which is haunting.

* Gandalf's Fall, (aka Foundations of Stone) which is loud.

* The Grey Havens - particularly the full film version with its extended statement of the music we remember from Gandalf's fall in Moria (which is somehow connected with Frodo's theme).

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Originally posted by kianga:
(I don't know many film scores which have this movie-like quality. Only one other comes to my mind, and that is Hans Zimmer's score for The Lion King. It is nothing compared to the complexity of The Lord of the Rings, but still a very touching piece of music.)

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*The lone horn singing the fellowship theme as Boromir passes in FOTR and Aragorn looks to the sky

*The Council of Elrond music (Gondor Theme) as Boromir speaks of Gondor. Just knowing that Shore planned this two years in advance makes me smile in awe.

*The March of the Ents in TTT when the nature/hope theme is sung by full choir

*The Shire theme played in all its glory when King Aragorn and company bow to the hobbits in ROTK

But as I've said, as soon as I know, I'll be sure to let everyone here know as well.

Best,

-Doug Adams

>>>If we're lucky, Doug might be reading this as we speak. Whenever the book gets a release, I hope it's well after the scoring sessions for ROTK:EE, as I think we're going to hear some pretty interesting music coming out of there. (There should at least be more of Faramir's theme.)[/B][/QUOTE]

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Originally posted by Doug Adams:
we're going to try to line it up with the CD boxed set and that's still in the assembly stages.

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"Still"?? I'm excited to hear that it's already in the assembly stages!

"Still"?? I'm excited to hear that it's already in the assembly stages!

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Originally posted by Doug Adams:
But as I've said, as soon as I know, I'll be sure to let everyone here know as well.

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