What's the use in comparing apples and oranges?

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Originally posted by rkeaveney:
What's the use in comparing apples and oranges?

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Because we can. And just like those to fruits, some people like both, while some like neither.

And with your high-handed attitude, you made someone cry.

which will be considered the best franchise?

I agree with Dinko.

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Originally posted by Dinko:
I find SW's themes to be more different from one another than LOTR's, making SW more diversified and less boring.

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I agree about more diversified. Also, Williams considerably expanded his style between the various installments, e.g. introducing dissonance in the ESB score.

However, this is exactly why I consider LOTR the more cohesive work. Or to put it differently: The first three Star Wars scores, like the movies they were written for, form a trilogy. The LOTR scores, like the movies they're written for, are called a trilogy, but are in reality one big work in three parts.

I think one of the reasons why I've come to appreciate Shore's scores for the two films more than Williams original trilogy is that Shore comes across as a musical anthropologist, carefully researching the texts and cultural archives of Middle Earth as the intellectual basis for his scores. It adds so much to your appreciation of the Argonath scene in FOTR if you realise that not only does the "history of the ring theme" suggest the danger of Boromir's temptation, but also the same temptation of Isildur, whose flawed magnificence is commemorated in those statues. Then there's the choral lead-up to the statement of the ring theme - the choir is singing lyrics that recall the words of Elendil as he came up the River Anduin with his two sons (to whom the statues are dedicated): "This land I claim for my descendants." The presence of the Aragorn and Boromir on those boats and the dispute of Gondor's kingship heavily underpins this choice of music. (And you can see that more clearly in the FOTR EE where the immediately preceding scene has Boromir and Aragorn arguing about the strength of men.)

For me film music often stands alone. But something is missed if you ignore the primary purpose - to support a visual narrative. Obviously the text book examples of this are William's Empire Strikes Back and Goldsmith's Star Trek The Motion Picture. But in the end the stories of those films had nothing of the richness of Tolkien's universe. That implies of course that Williams and Goldsmith never had the extraordinary opportunity Shore has had: to musically realise Tolkien's infinitessimally specified cultural landscape. And simply because there are more ideas behind Shore's music, I find Shore's 2 scores more interesting. (Of course, to make a final judgement I'd have to hear both scores in their unabridged entirety. May the day come soon!)

On a final note, I love Williams' new Star Wars scores. I think what he has done has a parallel with Shore's approach to Tolkien. He has considered the old Star Wars trilogy a realised universe, including musically, and gone back to build up a new opus that exploits the same tonal and thematic foundations. With the exception of Across the Stars, he has drawn on the 20th century Russian masters (Shostakovitch, Khatchaturian, Profokiev) in much the same way that the original trilogy was borne out of the romantics (Wagner) and their musical benefactors (Holst).

Anyway, it's a fruitful topic, this apples and oranges business.

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:

I think one of the reasons why I've come to appreciate Shore's scores for the two films more than Williams original trilogy is that Shore comes across as a musical anthropologist, carefully researching the texts and cultural archives of Middle Earth as the intellectual basis for his scores. It adds so much to your appreciation of the Argonath scene in FOTR if you realise that not only does the "history of the ring theme" suggest the danger of Boromir's temptation, but also the same temptation of Isildur, whose flawed magnificence is commemorated in those statues. Then there's the choral lead-up to the statement of the ring theme - the choir is singing lyrics that recall the words of Elendil as he came up the River Anduin with his two sons (to whom the statues are dedicated): "This land I claim for my descendants." The presence of the Aragorn and Boromir on those boats and the dispute of Gondor's kingship heavily underpins this choice of music. (And you can see that more clearly in the FOTR EE where the immediately preceding scene has Boromir and Aragorn arguing about the strength of men.)

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Shore had massive resources on his hand but also great pressure. Countless million of Tolkein fans were about to see their favorite characters and settings depicted onscreen. For all his research into the origins of the music, Shore did a near-perfect job in translating in to the big screen, without sounding contrite or downright cliched.

Williams meanwhile worked as the film was being shot, Lucas sending him bits and pieces of the film. A $10 million production, there was not much to be spared in terms of production. Thereby, Williams dealing with a relatively new niche of science fiction had a chance to experiment with a different synthesis and sound.

I sometimes think of the original trilogy as musical anthropolgy in a different sense. There you have more classic tales of heroism, once upon a time in a galaxy far far away, with very basic archetypes dominating the cast. (Consider the link with Campbell's thousand faced hero.) Accordingly, the Wagnerian style was adopted, and this is significant. Think of those Germanic operas - they are centered on the same types of stories (probably why Hitler liked them so much but that's another tale). The Wagnerian style was a very credible musical choice when Williams set out the underscore the exploits of the similarly mythical original Star Wars trilogy.

And in a way this opens the more recent Star Wars scores up to a similar analysis. They are, at their heart, more realistic stories, even if they are poorly written and acted. Things such as taxes start wars, and are exploited by evil men with agendas who don't realise they are being exploited by other evil men with deeper agendas who don't realise. The stuff of (tragically-unrealised) Shakespearian drama. Instead of fate-driven victory, it is pre-ordained defeat. Suddenly Wagnerian heroics aren't so appropriate for this kind of universe, be it a long time ago or not. The sombre complexity of 20th century Russian masters becomes a far superior choice. And it turns out this is what Williams did - since the underrated Nixon he had been developing himself in that style, moving closer to Shostakovitch. And that style reaches its peak in AI (what a musical masterwork is that score!) and Attack of the Clones.

Back to Shore, and away from anthropology. Where will he go next? Or for that matter, where will Williams go next? Each have one more score to go before their respective Ring cycles are complete. I can't guess where Williams will go next - AOTC was (pleasantly) the opposite of what I expected the score to be. But then again, so was the film (unpleasantly).

What will be the dominant sound of ROTK? Doubtless we will hear some variant of the history of the ring motif for Denethor and the decline of Gondor, but what will be the southern kingdom's equivalent to the hardinger-driven theme for Rohan? My guess is that as Aragorn is crowned king, we will hear a triumphant version of that theme for horns that plays when Aragorn and Boromir discussing the future of Gondor in Caras Galadhon in FOTR EE. (May it be, I would love to hear those two minutes of music developed.)

And what can we expect to hear for Frodo's descent? Where will the plethora of Gollum motifs develop next? What about a romantic motif for Eowyn and Faramir.

I generally expect that for the most part the music of the ROTK will not be new, but will close the trilogy by bringing all the principal motifs (except the now-defunct Isengard motif) back to the fore.

Anyway, hope that gives you more to think about.

Worth bringing up from time to time is a favorite quote of mine from composer John Scott:

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Film music encompasses every kind of music so far conceived: from ancient Chinese to rock and roll, from baroque to avant-garde/ This is because it serves a medium which expresses all things known to man. The film composer has to have a comprehensive knowledge of all tpes of music, and this seems to have contributed to the scorn heaped upon him or her in the past by so-called 'serious' music critics. Despite this lack of appreciation, the genree has always attracted some of the finest composers, and it will certainly continue to do so.

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I'm curious though, Lancelot, and indeed anyone else whose listening, where do you think Williams will go next with Star Wars? Assuming Lucas doesn't score the final chapter of the new trilogy with second generation tracked music from The Phantom Menace and AOTC, what will we hear when the final OST of Star Wars comes our way?

It's not inconceivable that Williams could draw it all together without a single new motif, given his library of materials for this series. But if he were to introduce a new theme, what would it be for?

Are we likely to hear more of Across the Stars and the Conflict theme from AOTC, or will the neglected Anakin's theme and Duel of the Fates return to the center? Or maybe Williams might dust off some more motifs from the original trilogy to complement the Empire march and the Force theme...?

MOFO is a hell of a track.

Franz, welcome to our board. I’ve enjoyed your posts. You seem to be a new member
with an amazing, intelligent voice and insightful knowledge. Hoping you’ll share where
you are from and what are some of your favorite filmscores and composers.

Honestly, I haven't bought it, and I haven't seen the film. But I did listen to it in store, and from what I heard its far more romantic than either The Time Machine or K19. (I haven't heard the Recruit yet, and Invincible and The Pledge didn't make their way to these shores.) I really liked the track Light - it reminded me of this Stravinsky-like theme from The Thin Red Line that never made it onto the album release - it was derived from the choral music in that film. Light is nice and there's a hint of celtic in it, which is unsurprising given the subject of the film. I can't speak for much else on the CD, there was some action music that didn't remind me particularly of anything in Badelt's other two scores. There's another strong piece called Father, which is more emotional material.

I wish I could say it was worth importing or not, but I don't know what it costs for you to import, and neither have I heard enough of it. For those who live in the UK, my guess is HMV might carry it. Eventually the film might get an international release, and you'll find it locally then. I assure you they will need to give the film an American release eventually, because it hasn't hit off with the local population, and they spent a lot of money on it.

My turn: who can tell me if the Hero soundtrack is any good? I've been very eager to hear this one. While we're on the topic, Mychael Danna's score for Regeneration, is it worth what would probably be $15 US?