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Author	Topic: LOTR: TT Extended Edition, Music as heard in the film, part one

franz_conrad Standard Userer	Some edits have been made 24/3/2004 to update the cue numbers. More edits are on the way. Hello everyone. I'm not alone in thinking that Shore's scores for the Lord of the Rings trilogies are fantastic works that together make for an incredible listening experience both in the context of the film and on album. Like many of you, I'm eagerly awaiting the yet-to-be-released complete versions of these scores. In an effort to get a sense of the as-yet unreleased material from the trilogy, and also to get a better idea of the thought that went into it the music as a whole, I recently began an in-depth analysis of the music from The Two Tower Extended Edition. My method was simply to listening, take as detailed notes as I could on times and correspondence between screen action and music. This list is in no way intended to encourage the proliferation of unauthorised material from the score, only to add as much as my limited musical vocabulary permits to the general appreciation of the intricacy of the music. Obviously TTT:EE is a long film. At nearly four hours length, it's more than I can review at one sitting. So here you have a cue list and notes on the first half hour of the film, which contained about 25 minutes of music, nearly 16 of which was unreleased material. If people are interested, I will put up the second half hour sometime Saturday, so do give me some feedback or I'll think nobody cares. At that rate the complete score analysis should be up within three weeks. I will also put up a section discussing missing cues and released material that did not appear in the final films. One thing I'm particularly interested in is disagreement or any additional insight others may have about what follows. You might have seen quite a lot in the film that I hadn't. If so, I'm interested. As well, I'm interested in finding a cyberspace home for the list when it is complete and corrected for any mistakes. If any of the review sites are interested in being that home, I'd love to hear from you. Perhaps when this is over, if I'm not completely in need of a break, The Fellowship Extended Edition will follow. Anyway, that's enough from me, onto the score... __________________________________________ The Two Towers: Extended Edition Complete Cue List __________________________________________ * indicates the cue is unreleased in its entirety. indicates the cue contains material that is unreleased. # indicates the cue was lengthened for the Extended Edition of the film. ___________________________________________ PART ONE: ONE RING, BUT THREE STORIES. ___________________________________________ TITLE LENGTH** 1. Foundations of Stone (3:34) 2. Main Title (0:34#) 3. Elven Rope (0:28#) 4. Lost in Emyn Muil (1:01) 5. Lembas (1:21#) 6. Capturing Gollum (1:55) 7. The Taming of Smeagol (2:46#) 9. Overture (7:02)*,# a. The Uruk-Hai (1:32#) b. The Three Hunters (2:02) c.The Union of the Two Towers (2:30#) d.The Westfold Burns (0:58) 9.The Fords of Isen (0:38#) 10.Grima Wormtongue (2:05#) 11.On the Trail of the Uruks (0:55) 12.In the Company of Uruks (2:39,#) a.Dinner Debate (1:41#) b.Mordor Meat (0:58#) Total length (24:58)* Approximate total released material from the film’s first half hour: 9:01 Approximate total unreleased material from the film’s first half hour: 15:57 __________________________________________ CUE-BY-CUE ANALYSIS __________________________________________ 1. Foundations of Stone 3:34 00:00:06 Deep strings surge as the Newline Logo and production credits appear. 00:00:33 The main ring theme appears over the main title. 00:00:50 Goldenthal-like strings take us over the tops of the Misty Mountains and close to the Dimrill Dale. 00:01:42 We plunge through the face as the percussion-brass material from the ‘Bridge of Khazadhum’ sequence of FOTR is reprised. 00:02:10 As the whip of the Balrog catches Gandalf’s legs, a particularly aggressive phrase that appears at the same moment in FOTR is stated, ending with a deep string chord. While in the first film, this chord led naturally into an elegy for Gandalf, instead here we have… 00:02:30 Swift descending passage for full orchestra that is soon joined by the ‘Dwarf’ choir from the first film. The interaction of string runs, choral lyrics, brass and percussion is stunning here, the first of the score’s many highlights. 00:03:27 Choir dominates as the duel nears the foundations of the track title. A seesawing motion in the underscore and chorus comes down with a crash right on… 00:03:40 … the track’s end. The cue is a slight abbreviation of the album track ‘Foundations of Stone’. The only clearly discernible difference is the absence of the epic opening choral statement that appears from 2:32 to 2:36 in the album version. In the film, that choral phrase is cut. *2. Main Title 0:34 # 00:03:58 While not entirely appropriate given the action on screen, the suggestion of the Rohan theme in the open seconds of the cue behind the title card suits the prominence of the theme throughout the score. 00:04:09** As the hobbits encounter difficulty in climbing down the cliff face in the Emyn Muil, a slightly suspenseful string phrase can be heard. Note: This phrase can be heard on the chapter 2 menu icon for the extended edition. 00:04:24 Tension builds, somewhat playfully as Sam slips and drops a box. Frodo moves to catch it, but only at the expense of his own footing. The brief expressive statement finds its end… 00:04:32 … as Frodo finds the bottom of the cliff. A nice little cue added for the Extended Edition scene where Frodo and Sam descend a cliff in Emyn Muil using Galadriel’s rope. Disaster is averted when Sam’s slips and causes Frodo to fall the (fortunately short) remaining cliff height. *3. Elven Rope 0:28 # 00:05:21 A weary statement of the Hobbit theme opens this cue as the contents of Sam’s box remind Frodo of The Shire. 00:05:31 The pastoral optimism of the Hobbit theme is replaced by more mournful strings as Sam regrets the loss of Lady Galadriel’s gift. 00:05:42 The musical interpretation of the little bit of Elven magic that follows is this little playful string phrase which recalls some of the lighter material for Merry and Pippin in the first film. 00:05:49** The cue ends without a bang. A nice little epilogue to the preceding cue for the completists out there who want every note. 4. Lost in Emyn Muil 1:01* 00:05:54 Originally where the title card appeared in the theatrical version of the film, this cue opens with a non-thematic sombre passage for strings. 00:06:33 In one of the more subtle appearances of a figure/motif from the first film, the passage in Fellowship where Arwen tends the deathly Frodo is suggested here. It may not be an intentional resemblance to the earlier passage. 00:06:38 Sharp stabs of brass and more ominous music – similar to the opening passages of ‘The Prophecy’ in the Fellowship soundtrack, as Frodo senses the Great Eye looking for him. 00:06:55 The cue ends as Sam looks concernedly on Frodo. 5. Lembas 1:21 # 00:07:19 As Frodo smiles at Sam’s (rather forced) attempts to enjoy lembas, lembas, and more lembas, the Hobbit theme appears in a more optimistic statement. This section of the cue appears as the opening portion of the album track ‘The Taming of Smeagol’. As Sam turns his attention to rainclouds… 00:07:46 …Mysterioso strings cover the transition to that night as the Hobbits soak up one of Manwe and Ulmo’s collaborations. The strings quickly lead into a statement of Gollum’s theme, who watches from a nearby rocky outcrop. This segment is added for the Extended Edition. 00:08:06 More ambiguous strings accompany Sam and Frodo as they try to find their way through a low-lying cloud the following day. It seems to me that the motif that appears at 00:06:33 is suggested here as the Hobbits realise they are travelling in circles, adding some strength to the earlier comment that it is a reprised motif from the Fellowship score. 00:08:32 Strings build warily as Frodo notes that they’re being followed until… 00:08:40 … cue’s end. A possible alternative to the passage that appears from 00:07:06 to 00:08:40 is the choral passage in the album track ‘The Taming of Smeagol’ (0:27-1:09) of that track. This alternative cue is discussed with other musical odds and ends at the end of this general review of the extended edition score. 6. Capturing Gollum 1:55 00:08:47 A major thematic addition to the score for the trilogy is the cymbalom motif for Gollum that is first stated here. Generally the theme recurs whenever the more malevolent Stinker dominates the schizophrenic creature. In this section of the cue, Gollum crawls down a rock face to retake the Ring from Frodo. This appears as 1:08-1:45 of the album cue ‘The Taming of Smeagol’. 00:09:21 The cymbalom motif stops as Frodo and Sam jump to life and seize the creature. 00:09:25 As they throw him down a furious passage for orchestra begins as the wiry, desperate Gollum lunges again and again for the Ring. This passage of about 55-56 seconds length is edited into a 28 second piece for the album that appears in 1:47-2:15 on the cue ‘The Taming of Smeagol’. The passage builds furiously towards… 00:10:18 … a restatement of the cymbalom motif as Gollum is pinned down by Frodo with Sting at his throat. The remainder of the of the passage survives on the album at 2:15-2:41 of the ‘The Taming of Smeagol’. The cue ends… 00:10:42 As Gollum’s pitiful shrieks fill the Emyn Muil. The action piece for the capturing of Gollum is a highlight of the score, available only in abbreviated form on the album version of the cue. As well the cymbalom motif for Gollum is an interesting addition to the musical portrait of that character. *7. The Taming of Smeagol 2:46# 00:11:28 On the phrase ‘we be nice to them if they be nice to us’, Gollum’s theme is stated. Generally this theme is associated with Slinker – the pitiable, pathetic, weak and even somewhat likable side of Gollum. As Slinker thinks of an appropriate sacred object on which to swear… 00:11:50 … the central Ring motif appears and suggests the Ring as an appropriate sacred object. Hearing the Ring and Gollum themes so close to each other reminds the listener of the musical kinship of these themes. While the solemn majesty of the former suggests the power of the Ring to change history and the mystery of its power, the mournful pathos of the latter reminds of the sad toll of ruined lives left by that power. It wouldn’t be a great surprise, given how events transpire in the final novel, if the Gollum theme came to represent Frodo’s emotional scars in the final film. 00:12:06 Wandering strings follow as Gollum binds his promise and Sam expresses his reservations… 00:12:20 …the physical force of which excites the conductor to remind the brass section that they’re being paid to do something. Subdued horns follow. 00:12:45 The Stinker/Cymbalom motif is stated by horns as Gollum begins to take them on their way, the debate between Slinker and Stinker raging all the way. From here on the material is additional music for the extended edition. 00:12:57 Strings suggest the Slinker/Gollum motif. 00:13:07 The cymbalom finally reprises the cymbalom motif with stronger percussion. 00:13:25 As Slinker/Smeagol speaks his view, that theme is suggested before… 00:13:33 The Stinker motif for cymbalom returns, building up as Gollum stops, talking to himself in plain sight of the Hobbits. After communicating his feelings to them… 00:13:46 The music builds into a playful chase passage that borders on humorous as Gollum appears to run away from the Hobbits. 00:14:01 After Gollum reappears the chase material is reprised buoyantly. 00:14:08 A chord from the string section covers the transition… 00:14:14 … to the southern bounds of the Wold on the plains of Rohan as the cue ends. This unreleased cue is fascinating, particularly in the ways different motifs and orchestration are combined to enrich our first full daylight view of Gollum. Consequently, the cue is as schizophrenic as its subject, but it’s a lot of fun. 8. Overture 7:02,# *8a. The Uruk-Hai 1:32 # 00:14:50 Wary passage for horns and strings as Pippin worries about Merry. 00:15:03 Stabs of brass and hints of the Uruk-Hai thematic material as Merry is forced to drink liquid cola concentrate. 00:15:32 Pippin’s fears are allayed as Merry indicates he was ‘faking it’ (as some disappointments are more than your average orc can take). A variation of the hobbit theme appears here with a nice string counterpoint. 00:15:50 Serious note sounds and passage for horns follows as Ugluk smells ‘manflesh’. 00:16:05 Harsh percussion begins the familiar Isengard march, one of Shore’s most delightfully malevolent themes in this score. The additional material for brass introduced in the Amon Hen sequence of the Extended Fellowship score (also stated for chorus in that scene) is suggested here, anticipating its later appearance in full in cue 14. 00:16:14 The Isengard theme rises to its apex with the addition of a brass ostinato similar to that in the Fellowship album cue ‘The Prophecy.’ ED: Actually, the instrumental version of the Ringspell seems more strongly suggested here. 00:16:22 Cue ends with a crash. Strong piece is extended from the theatrical version and reintroduces the Isengard theme into this score. This piece is effectively part one of the four part overture to the film, which continues in cues 9, 10 and 11. 8b. The Three Hunters 2:02 00:16:27 Cue starts with horn variations on the prelude to the Fellowship theme. Each statement of the prelude introduces one of the three hunters, in keeping with the triadic nature of the theme. 00:16:54 As Gimli struggles to make the Middle Earth long distance team, a magnificent aerial shot of the southern edge of the Wold is accompanied by a heroic statement of the Fellowship theme, the first such statement since the Bridge of Khazadhum in the first film. 00:17:19 As Aragorn locates the leaf of Lorien that idly fell, woodwind variations on the Fellowship theme accompany the action. 00:17:52 As the three hunters arrive at the edge of the plains of Rohan, the opening phrase of the Rohan theme is grandly stated by the brass section. 00:18:05 Harsher chords play as Aragorn detects ‘a will’ that inhibits their pursuit of the Uruks. 00:18:11 The harsher material swells as Aragorn identifies the hand of Saruman in the affair, leading to the cue’s… 00:18:29 … end. One of the highlights of the album (appearing as the first two minutes of the album track ‘Uruk-Hai’), this cue reintroduces the Fellowship theme from the Fellowship score in an exciting new version that breathes new life into the theme. In addition the Rohan theme is anticipated (see also 00:03:58). The last 24 seconds of the cue are hitherto unreleased. 8c. The Union of the Two Towers 2:30# 00:18:36 As the camera pans about Orthanc, the string section leads into… 00:18:44 … a full statement of the Mordor theme for brass as the camera tracks towards the impressive completed Barad-dur bigature. 00:19:10 As Saruman says ‘together we shall rule this Middle Earth’, the Great Eye and Orodruin light up like Christmas trees. The orchestra swells with rhaita soloist to a full statement of the Mordor theme. It sounds deliciously chaotic. 00:19:18 The Isengard theme returns as the action shifts to the subterranean caverns below Orthanc. A number of variations on the theme follow as Saruman prepares for war against Rohan. The variations include passages for… 00:19:35 … brass… (ed: suggestion of the Black Rider theme - Ringspell here) 00:20:00 … strings… (in the extended edition scene where Saruman sanctions the felling of Treebeard’s friends) 00:20:12 … more brass… 00:20:24 The percussion returns aggressively as the leader of the Wildmen pledges allegiance to Saruman and nominates himself as blood donor to support the war against Rohan. 00:20:43 A slightly awkward transition to the expansive cue for the Wildmen rally takes place. 00:20:57 The percussion of the Isengard theme returns as the Wildmen go forth in plunder mode until… 00:21:06** …cue’s end. The third part of the film’s overture features lengthy restatements of two of three principal ‘villain’ themes from the first film – the Isengard and Mordor themes. The variations on the former are particularly interesting. The album cue ‘The Uruk Hai’ includes only the only up to 00:19:35 (with a few missing seconds of music) with a drum-roll ending to the cue edited in early. 8d. The Westfold Burns 0:58* 00:21:08 Noble horns start the cue as we see a village in turmoil. 00:21:16 Choir (see below) mourns the loss of peace and life in this village as Orcs and Wildmen move quickly on the town. The section from 00:21:42 to 00:21:50 can be heard looped when the icon for chapter 6 is selected on the Extended Edition DVD. 00:21:50 Choral elegy swells as those that remain in the village are cut down. Horns are heard as the young children reluctantly turn their back to the town and… 00:22:06 … ride away. Another highlight excluded from the released album, this fourth part of the film's overture covers the sequence where Rohirrim peasants are slaughtered by pillaging hordes of Uruk-hai and Wildmen. The elegiac choral piece (probably Old English) that appears here anticipates the use of that device later in the score for similarly dramatic moments in the Rohan story – see particularly the album release cues ‘King of the Golden Hall’ (2:32-3:45), ‘Helm’s Deep’ (0:56-1:37) and ‘The Hornburg’ (0:45-1:44). *9. The Fords of Isen 0:38# 00:22:48** Ambiguous strings underscore the discovery of Theodred’s still breathing body. This section of the cue can be heard by selecting chapter 7 on the DVD menu. 00:22:58 Bold brassy thematic material accompanies Eomer’s ride through Westfold back to Edoras. 00:23:17 As Eowyn is seen running up the stairs to Meduseld, her theme is suggested by strings before… 00:23:26 … the cue’s end. This short cue has one quite interesting section between 00:22:58 and 00:23:17. This bold thematic material may be a motif that Shore has since also included in the Return of the King score as an additional battle motif for the Rohirrim. *10. Grima Wormtongue 2:05 # 00:23:56 As Grima appears from behind the column in Meduseld, this cue begins with sombre strings. The strings serve the double role of suggesting the King’s decline and Grima’s duplicity. Ed: It has been suggested that 'Grima's theme' is the first three or four ascending notes of this cue. 00:24:26 As Eomer drops the helmet bearing the White Hand, the music quickens… 00:24:34 But Grima is devious and soon turns the new revelation to his advantage. The music builds to the point of banishment – strings complemented by stabs of brass. An excerpt from this section of the cue can be heard on DVD menu item 8. 00:25:05 There is a lighter moment here as Eowyn is seen, before the strings/brass figure builds to the point of… 00:26:01** … banishment, under pain of death. An interesting piece that really sets the musical tone of Grima and his quick-thinking – the dark string passages return whenever he is on screen. The last minute and a quarter of the cue, which contains material composed for the Extended Edition, would be a welcome addition to the released music. 11. On the Trail of the Uruks 0:55* 00:26:04 Percussion and brass entwine both Isengard and Fellowship themes as the chase across the (rather hilly) grass plains of Rohan continues. This opening section of the cue can be heard in isolation if the chapter 9 menu icon is highlighted. 00:26:18 Choir enters the cue, reprising in full the motif from the first film that appeared in brief earlier at 00:16:05. 00:26:34 Pained horn statement of the Fellowship theme not previously heard in the trilogy as the three hunters run down a slope and Legolas delivers a line while on the trot about whips and wills. 00:26:53 Last crash of the Isengard percussion motif lingers for the scene transition to the Orc camp that night. 00:26:59 Cue end. A highlight on the unreleased action material, this cue reprises for chorus the additional thematic material Shore composed for the Amon Hen fight in the extended version of the first film. As well, the interaction of Isengard and Fellowship themes here is unique in the trilogy. This cue can be heard as the track ‘On the trail of the Uruk-Hai’ at Hirgon's clips. *12. In the Company of Uruks 2:39 # 12a. Dinner Debate 1:41 #* 00:27:30 Trumpet plays the first few notes of what has become known as ‘The Nature Theme’ (see below) as Pippin and Merry hear the talking trees and remember the Old Forest. Ed: It has been suggested that this may be a clarinet, and not a trumpet, although it does sound like a brass to my ears. 00:27:53 Orchestra shifts to Orc mode as someone expresses their hunger. The mood is humourous… 00:28:06 … but soon turns sour as one of the Mordor orcs suggests Pippin and Merry as dinner. 00:28:10 A three-note brass motif appears as the suspense builds and the Orc argue over Pippin and Merry. The brass motif, which can be heard by highlighting extended edition menu chapter 10 , is restated as the argument continues… 00:29:00 The brass statement of the motif strengthens, building to the point where the Mordor orc sneaks up behind the hobbits… 00:29:11 … and Ugluk dispatches him. Not really a cue in isolation, since only a brief pause follows the decapitation of the Mordor orc, this unreleased passage is notable for: (a) the reappearance of the ‘Nature’ theme from Fellowship, which last appeared at Amon Hen when Merry and Pippin work to distract the Orcs from Frodo’s escape. The theme here represents the latent power of the Huorns of Fangorn, and the avalanche effect that these two hobbits are about to have on them. The second notable feature of the cue is the addition of a suspenseful three-note motif while the Orcs bicker. *12b. Mordor Meat 0:58 # 00:29:14 The Isengard is reprised with relish as the Uruks tear the Mordor orc to pieces. 00:29:23 Brass suggests the additional Isengard material (last referenced for choir at 00:26:18) appears as the hobbits attempt an escape, followed by a more sinister passage as Grishnakh pins them down. 00:29:41 As the Rohirrim spear hits Grishnakh, a martial motif for percussion is played. This figure later appears during the Warg Battle later in the film (and forms the opening seconds of the album cue ‘Helm’s Deep’). 00:30:12** The brief action cue ends with a crash as a horses hooves come down on the hobbits. Again, the cue cannot really be viewed as a cue in isolation, but in its brief length is contains a substantial amount of motific material. AND THAT'S PART ONE. COMING SOON!!! PART TWO!!! [Message edited by franz_conrad on 11-22-2003] Thanks to Jelle and the others over at smme at yahoo for their comments and suggestions. [Message edited by franz_conrad on 03-23-2004] [Message edited by franz_conrad on 03-24-2004]
posted 11-19-2003 02:55 PM PT (US)

TimT Standard Userer	Wow what a fanatic!
posted 11-19-2003 03:18 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	By the way, I forgot to give credit where credit was due. I found Camillu's post earlier this year - the one where TTT album was dissected - very helpful.
posted 11-19-2003 05:13 PM PT (US)

jb1234 Non-Standard Userer	I like this a lot. It makes for very handy reference while watching the film. Please continue.
posted 11-19-2003 07:34 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by franz_conrad: 14. On the Trail of the Uruks 0:55* 00:26:04 Percussion and brass entwine both Isengard and Fellowship themes as the chase across the (rather hilly) grass plains of Rohan continues. This opening section of the cue can be heard in isolation if the chapter 9 menu icon is highlighted. 00:26:18 Choir enters the cue, reprising in full the motif from the first film that appeared in brief earlier at 00:16:05. 00:26:34 Pained horn statement of the Fellowship theme not previously heard in the trilogy as the three hunters run down a slope and Legolas delivers a line while on the trot about whips and wills. 00:26:53 Last crash of the Isengard percussion motif lingers for the scene transition to the Orc camp that night. 00:26:59 Cue end. A highlight on the unreleased action material, this cue reprises for chorus the additional thematic material Shore composed for the Amon Hen fight in the extended version of the first film. As well, the interaction of Isengard and Fellowship themes here is unique in the trilogy. This cue can be heard as the track ‘On the trail of the Uruk-Hai’ on a website called (I can't exactly remember) 'Hirgon's Lord of the Rings Clips'. The link to this track is: http://www.sa-matra.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/lotr/
posted 11-20-2003 01:56 PM PT (US)

Marian Schedenig Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by franz_conrad: 1. Foundations of Stone 3:34 00:00:06 Deep strings surge as the Newline Logo and production credits appear. 00:00:33 The main ring theme appears over the main title. 00:00:50 Goldenthal-like strings take us over the tops of the Misty Mountains and close to the Dimrill Dale. 00:01:42 We plunge through the face as the percussion-brass material from the ‘Bridge of Khazadhum’ sequence of FOTR is reprised. 00:02:10 As the whip of the Balrog catches Gandalf’s legs, a particularly aggressive two note phrase is stated twice, ending with a deep string chord. While in the first film, this chord led naturally into an elegy for Gandalf, instead here we have… 00:02:30 Swift descending passage for full orchestra that is soon joined by the ‘Dwarf’ choir from the first film. The interaction of string runs, choral lyrics, brass and percussion is stunning here, the first of the score’s many highlights. 00:03:27 Choir dominates as the duel nears the foundations of the track title. A seesawing motion in the underscore and chorus comes down with a crash right on… 00:03:40 … the track’s end.[/B] I've always thought that this bit is somewhat related to Gollum's Song.
posted 11-20-2003 03:37 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Marian Schedenig: I've always thought that this bit is somewhat related to Gollum's Song. I noticed you remarked on that in Camillu's post. As for the similarities - long string lines - musically that's similar. I'd be tempted to think it a coincidence of style, as there doesn't seem to be a thematic connection with Gollum. (On an unrelated point, I've always wondered how he got out of Moria during the Balrog fight since the bridge was broken.)
posted 11-20-2003 03:59 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Marian Schedenig: [quote] Originally posted by franz_conrad: [b] 1. Foundations of Stone 3:34 00:00:50 Goldenthal-like strings take us over the tops of the Misty Mountains and close to the Dimrill Dale.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE> I've always thought that this bit is somewhat related to Gollum's Song.[/B] It has occurred to me in the last few days that this piece of music is likely related to the Misty Mountains material from FOTR. While the music is a bit more leisurely than the Misty Mountains theme, this may be due to the fact that it is the longest sustained shot of the Misty Mountains yet seen in the trilogy. [Message edited by franz_conrad on 11-22-2003]
posted 11-22-2003 09:20 PM PT (US)

Wickenstein Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by franz_conrad: 00:05:54 Originally where the title card appeared in the theatrical version of the film, this cue opens with a non-thematic sombre passage for strings. [/B] Actually, I believe this is a form of Sauron's theme, which I thought was a great way to open to the title, Two Towers (they always play sauron's theme when they do those awesome camera moves over the Sauron's tower, so it's very appropriate). By playing the Rohan theme over the title for the extended edition they ruined the continuity established in FOTR with the fellowship theme over the title. They should have stuck with what they had. Any speculation on what they will play over the ROTK title? The Aragorn theme or the Gondor theme?
posted 11-24-2003 08:45 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	Interesting... the Sauron theme you think over the old main titles? I'd have to listen to it again I think, I don't recall it seeming terribly similar to that theme.
posted 11-24-2003 09:05 PM PT (US)

Jaav Standard Userer	Wickenstein, I don't really agree with you calling the theme you hear at 00.05.54 the Sauron Theme. There is nothing that would refer to Sauron or Mordor... But that's my opinion, of course ^_^ Jelle
posted 11-25-2003 01:47 AM PT (US)

Jaav Standard Userer	Here's my review you asked for me to put up here, Franz ^_^! I hope it won't get all messy, because I can't seem to enable HTML here. Is that because I'm still a non-standard user? :S To clarify a little... First you will get Franz' explanation and analyse with his time stamps. And then under that is my review on it. 00.00.50 Goldenthal-like strings take us over the tops of the Misty Mountains and close to the Dimrill Dale. Can you give me an example of a Goldenthal sequence? I'm not too familiar with Eliott, I only have his 'Final Fantasy: The Spirit Within Soundtrack' and I'm not sure what would be able to be described as 'Goldenthal-like' sounds like in one of his works. But other than that, I must say I agree with Kurt. This scene does have resemblance with the Caradhras Theme in FotR, namely in the orchestration, not in the thematic material, because to me it's doesn't sound like that particular theme, it's more like something that could be following it when we would extend the Caradhras Theme. But it's in the same atmosphere and that makes sense, both being pan-shots of the Misty Mountains. 00.01.42 We plunge through the face as the percussion-brass material from the ‘Bridge of Khazadhum’ sequence of FOTR is reprised. I still need to figure out or analyze the Moria scene, but I agree that it's a reprise of music from FotR, which once again make sense as we go through a flashback of what happened before. 00.02.30 Swift descending passage for full orchestra that is soon joined by the ‘Dwarf’ choir from the first film. The interaction of string runs, choral lyrics, brass and percussion is stunning here, the first of the score’s many highlights. The fact that it's descending at first makes this interesting for film analysts since Gandalf and the Balrog are actually falling, descending into the darkness. But then when it becomes clear that Gandalf won't give up without a fight -he grabs his sword-, you hear the lyrics and they are ascending, meaning that it's not over yet and building up the tension of the fight. 00.03.27 Choir dominates as the duel nears the foundations of the track title. A seesawing motion in the underscore and chorus comes down with a crash right on… What would be the meaning of this? I particularly love this scene and the choir, but I'm not too sure why this music is here. It kind of is unresolved and yet resolving… The fight is seen from another view at first, another camera and perhaps that's why it suddenly changes from the former music when Gandalf and the Balrog are falling to this seesawing motif. Perhaps it's interesting to see this as a film analyst point of view and not only the film music analyst point of view, I don't know... 00.05.31 The Elgarian optimism of the Hobbit theme is replaced by more mournful strings as Sam regrets the loss of Lady Galadriel’s gift. Elgarian… Maybe I would rather call is 'pastoral'. But I'm not too sure though… I always thought that the Hobbit Theme and everthing considering the Shire had something pastoral, and Brian Sibley mentioned this also in his book about FotR. At least in the Dutch translated version that is. 00.05.54 Originally where the title card appeared in the theatrical version of the film, this cue opens with a non-thematic sombre passage for strings. When I first listened to this, I expected to hear more of the oboe motif in the scene. You know those three notes you can clearly hear. And I haven't really listened carefully to find it elsewhere, but now that I'm doing this analyse, who knows I'll find it -because it sounds really familiar- and then it'll maybe become some thematic material. But let's just wait until I can prove my point. Just jotting this down... What comes after this oboe is, for me, indeed non-thematic material. 00.06.33 In one of the more subtle appearances of a figure/motif from the first film, the passage in Fellowship where Arwen tends the deathly Frodo is suggested here. It may not be an intentional resemblance to the earlier passage. I should go back to FotR and listen to that passage. It does sound familiar and without considering it could be in the earlier passage, it sounds like a very short coda, or at least something to close or end a musical sentence. I will get back to this, it sounds interesting in linking scenes. 00.08.06 More ambiguous strings accompany Sam and Frodo as they try to find their way through a low-lying cloud the following day. The motif that appears at 00:06:33 is reprised as the Hobbits realise they are travelling in circles, adding some strength to the earlier comment that it is a reprised motif from the Fellowship score. I'm not sure if I agree with the fact that the 00.06.33 motif is reprised here, as I mentioned I see it as something closing a musical sentence. It also doesn't really remind me of FotR, not specifically. 00.09.25 As they throw him down a furious passage for orchestra begins as the wiry, desperate Gollum lunges again and again for the Ring. This passage of about 55-56 seconds length is edited into a 28 second piece for the album that appears in 1:47-2:15 on the cue ‘The Taming of Smeagol’. The passage builds furiously towards… This is what I call action-music. I particularly like the trumpets here. 00.11.50 …the central Ring motif appears and suggests the Ring as an appropriate sacred object. Hearing the Ring and Gollum themes so close to each other reminds the listener of the musical kinship of these themes. While the solemn majesty of the former suggests the power of the Ring to change history and the mystery of its power, the mournful pathos of the latter reminds of the sad toll of ruined lives left by that power. It wouldn’t be a great surprise, given how events transpire in the final novel, if the Gollum theme came to represent Frodo’s emotional scars in the final film. That wouldn't surprise me either, and it would be really intriguing if that were to happen. 00.12.45 The Stinker/Cymbalom motif is stated by horns as Gollum begins to take them on their way, the debate between Slinker and Stinker raging all the way. From here on the material is additional music for the extended edition. & 00.12.57 The string section states the Stinker motif. The horns play a variation of the Cymbalon Motif, but I don't hear… ...the strings taking over here. 00.16.27 Cue starts with horn variations on the prelude to the Fellowship theme. Each statement of the prelude introduces one of the three hunters, in keeping with the triadic nature of the theme. I'm not sure I understand what 'you' exactly mean with 'the triadic nature of the theme'. 00.17.19 As Aragorn locates the leaf of Lorien that idly fell, woodwind variations on the Fellowship theme accompany the action. Just before those variations I hear something in the oboe, that is probably just a transition, but it also could be there considering the leaf. I wondered why an oboe would accompany the view of the Lorien leaf on the ground before we go back to the Fellowship Theme? 00.18.11 The harsher material swells as Aragorn identifies the hand of Saruman in the affair, leading to the cue’s… Something intrigued me here: the long sustained brass notes. They reminded me somehow to the short track from the 'Fields of the Pelennor' - the heroic brass. I'm probably wrong when I compare it with that piece of music but strangely it keeps spinning in my mind that I will hear it again. 00.18.44 …a full statement of the Mordor theme with raita soloist as the camera tracks towards the impressive completed Barad-dur bigature. The first time you can hear the Theme is just brass, right? The second time I hear the raita. 00.19.10 As Saruman says ‘together we shall rule this Middle Earth’, the Great Eye and Orodruin light up like Christmas trees. The orchestra swells to a full chaotic statement of the Mordor theme. I don't hear a full chaotic statement of the Mordor Theme here, I just hear rising notes, following the Mordor Theme (which I actually call Sauron Theme) and in the same atmosphere as we're still in Mordor with the camera. 00.20.00 …strings… (in the extended edition scene where Saruman sanctions the felling of Treebeard’s friends) I see this as a string variation on the 'Isengard Five Beat Pattern' which normally is played by percussion. Not really on the Isengard Theme. The full Isengard Theme is, for me, a combination of its Beat Pattern and the 6 note motif, but I can speak of the Isengard Theme also when I only hear that 6 note motif, however I don't think we had that already without the presence of the Beat Pattern, am I right? 00.20.12 …more brass… I strangely heard a fragment, i.e. two descending thirds, of what Magpie calls the Dies Irae Motif or what I also call the Descending Third Motive, a danger motif that is connected with the Ringwraiths and therefore also with Mordor and Sauron. But I don't think I should consider it being a variation on it, since we're clearly in Isengard and it might be a variation on the Isengard Theme, especially when we take note of what is following these four notes. 00.20.43 A slightly awkward transition to the expansive cue for the Wildmen rally takes place. Weird. I can't really figure out the use of this passage in the context. It just sounds really different… 00.21.50 Choral elegy swells as those that remain in the village are cut down. Percussion builds as the young children reluctantly turn their back to the town and… I didn't really hear percussion here…More like strings and wind instruments 00.22.58 Bold brassy thematic material accompanies Eomer’s ride through Westfold back to Edoras. Exactly! Who's or what Theme could this be? 00.23.17 As Eowyn is seen running up the stairs to Meduseld, her theme is suggested by strings before… Never thought of it in that way, but now that you mention it, this could indeed be a suggestion or variation on Eowyn's Theme. The orchestration, sweeping strings, is the same as the one used for her Theme. 00.23.56 As Grima appears from behind the column in Meduseld, this cue begins with sombre strings. The strings serve the double role of suggesting the King’s decline and Grima’s duplicity. Actually, I believe these first three or four ascending notes from the strings serve as a Theme for Grima. I heard it later again -that will be in the second part of your analysis- when Grima appears in the room where the dead Theodred lies and where Eowyn mourns. 00.25.05 There is a lighter moment here as Eowyn is seen, before the strings/brass figure builds to the point of… What is this strings/brass figure you mean exactly? 00.27.30 Trumpet plays the first few notes of what has become known as ‘The Nature Theme’ (see below) as Pippin and Merry hear the talking trees and remember the Old Forest. I thought I heard a clarinet instead of the trumpet, but now I'm not sure anymore :S 00.29.41 As the Rohirrim spear hits Grishnakh, a martial motif for percussion is played. This figure later appears during the Warg Battle later in the film (and forms the opening seconds of the album cue ‘Helm’s Deep’). Wow! I didn't recognize this part! Can't wait to get to the Warg Battle! That's it! ^_^ I'll work on your second part today, Franz! Bye! Jelle
posted 11-25-2003 02:00 AM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	Thanks Jelle, for posting this here. Some points you make I've tried to address in my initial post but I'll deal with them here as well. quote: Originally posted by Jaav: 00.00.50 Goldenthal-like strings take us over the tops of the Misty Mountains and close to the Dimrill Dale. Can you give me an example of a Goldenthal sequence? I'm not too familiar with Eliott, I only have his 'Final Fantasy: The Spirit Within Soundtrack' and I'm not sure what would be able to be described as 'Goldenthal-like' sounds like in one of his works. But other than that, I must say I agree with Kurt. This scene does have resemblance with the Caradhras Theme in FotR, namely in the orchestration, not in the thematic material, because to me it's doesn't sound like that particular theme, it's more like something that could be following it when we would extend the Caradhras Theme. But it's in the same atmosphere and that makes sense, both being pan-shots of the Misty Mountains. 100% agreed on the Misty Mountain theme connection. I was coming around to this way of thinking myself when I saw the discussion between you and magpie at smme. As to Goldenthal, I'm thinking here of some of his more elegiac string writing. The more dramatic moments in Alien3, Interview with the Vampire, the finale from Titus, and even to some extent the opening to the cue 'Adagio and Transformation' on Final Fantasy particularly come to mind. If you like Howard Shore, Goldenthal's music wouldn't be too much I'd think. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.01.42 We plunge through the face as the percussion-brass material from the ‘Bridge of Khazadhum’ sequence of FOTR is reprised. I still need to figure out or analyze the Moria scene, but I agree that it's a reprise of music from FotR, which once again make sense as we go through a flashback of what happened before. It's difficult to write about the Moria music, particularly the action material. The writing is so dense that it's easy to go past motifs without noticing them. In any case, it makes for great action music, and since this part wasn't on the original album, it's a welcome edition on TTT album. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.02.30 Swift descending passage for full orchestra that is soon joined by the ‘Dwarf’ choir from the first film. The interaction of string runs, choral lyrics, brass and percussion is stunning here, the first of the score’s many highlights. The fact that it's descending at first makes this interesting for film analysts since Gandalf and the Balrog are actually falling, descending into the darkness. But then when it becomes clear that Gandalf won't give up without a fight -he grabs his sword-, you hear the lyrics and they are ascending, meaning that it's not over yet and building up the tension of the fight. It would be interesting to follow the dynamics of the scene and look at the correspondence of action to choral lyrics. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.03.27 Choir dominates as the duel nears the foundations of the track title. A seesawing motion in the underscore and chorus comes down with a crash right on… What would be the meaning of this? I particularly love this scene and the choir, but I'm not too sure why this music is here. It kind of is unresolved and yet resolving… The fight is seen from another view at first, another camera and perhaps that's why it suddenly changes from the former music when Gandalf and the Balrog are falling to this seesawing motif. Perhaps it's interesting to see this as a film analyst point of view and not only the film music analyst point of view, I don't know... I think what is happening here dramatically is that as we move from the confined shaft below the Bridge of Khazadhum to the epic canvas of this subteranean ocean, the music suggests the spacial opening up of the action. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.05.31 The Elgarian optimism of the Hobbit theme is replaced by more mournful strings as Sam regrets the loss of Lady Galadriel’s gift. Elgarian… Maybe I would rather call is 'pastoral'. But I'm not too sure though… I always thought that the Hobbit Theme and everthing considering the Shire had something pastoral, and Brian Sibley mentioned this also in his book about FotR. At least in the Dutch translated version that is. I haven't read Sibley's book. Is it any good? And you're right, there was a link between pastoral and Elgarian in my mind, and I think pastoral would have been a better choice of words. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.05.54 Originally where the title card appeared in the theatrical version of the film, this cue opens with a non-thematic sombre passage for strings. When I first listened to this, I expected to hear more of the oboe motif in the scene. You know those three notes you can clearly hear. And I haven't really listened carefully to find it elsewhere, but now that I'm doing this analyse, who knows I'll find it -because it sounds really familiar- and then it'll maybe become some thematic material. But let's just wait until I can prove my point. Just jotting this down... What comes after this oboe is, for me, indeed non-thematic material. 00.06.33 In one of the more subtle appearances of a figure/motif from the first film, the passage in Fellowship where Arwen tends the deathly Frodo is suggested here. It may not be an intentional resemblance to the earlier passage. I should go back to FotR and listen to that passage. It does sound familiar and without considering it could be in the earlier passage, it sounds like a very short coda, or at least something to close or end a musical sentence. I will get back to this, it sounds interesting in linking scenes. I think here I erroneously made a musical similarity sound like motif. There's definitely a similarity, and it may be motific, but as I think about it, the connection may simply be coincidental in that in both cases, Shore is writing a lush string coda to a more ambiguous passage of music. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.08.06 More ambiguous strings accompany Sam and Frodo as they try to find their way through a low-lying cloud the following day. The motif that appears at 00:06:33 is reprised as the Hobbits realise they are travelling in circles, adding some strength to the earlier comment that it is a reprised motif from the Fellowship score. I'm not sure if I agree with the fact that the 00.06.33 motif is reprised here, as I mentioned I see it as something closing a musical sentence. It also doesn't really remind me of FotR, not specifically. There's a slight similarity... but again I probably attributed a bit too much importance to that 'motific' connection. quote: 00.09.25 As they throw him down a furious passage for orchestra begins as the wiry, desperate Gollum lunges again and again for the Ring. This passage of about 55-56 seconds length is edited into a 28 second piece for the album that appears in 1:47-2:15 on the cue ‘The Taming of Smeagol’. The passage builds furiously towards… This is what I call action-music. I particularly like the trumpets here. 00.11.50 …the central Ring motif appears and suggests the Ring as an appropriate sacred object. Hearing the Ring and Gollum themes so close to each other reminds the listener of the musical kinship of these themes. While the solemn majesty of the former suggests the power of the Ring to change history and the mystery of its power, the mournful pathos of the latter reminds of the sad toll of ruined lives left by that power. It wouldn’t be a great surprise, given how events transpire in the final novel, if the Gollum theme came to represent Frodo’s emotional scars in the final film. That wouldn't surprise me either, and it would be really intriguing if that were to happen. We'll know pretty soon. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.12.45 The Stinker/Cymbalom motif is stated by horns as Gollum begins to take them on their way, the debate between Slinker and Stinker raging all the way. From here on the material is additional music for the extended edition. & 00.12.57 The string section states the Stinker motif. The horns play a variation of the Cymbalon Motif, but I don't hear… ...the strings taking over here. Ah typo! I meant the Slinker/Gollum motif, not the cymbalon/stinker motif. And even then, the passage should read... "the string section suggests the Slinker motif." Apologies, though this isn't the last typo. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.16.27 Cue starts with horn variations on the prelude to the Fellowship theme. Each statement of the prelude introduces one of the three hunters, in keeping with the triadic nature of the theme. I'm not sure I understand what 'you' exactly mean with 'the triadic nature of the theme'. This is my dubious musical vocabulary at work here. Triadic probably has a specific musical meaning that I don't know about. When I hear the Fellowship theme, I hear a theme that is very distinctly structured in clusters of 3 notes. I was trying to say something here about three statements of the theme, which itself is made of threes. I think there's something in it, but probably the wrong way to put it. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.17.19 As Aragorn locates the leaf of Lorien that idly fell, woodwind variations on the Fellowship theme accompany the action. Just before those variations I hear something in the oboe, that is probably just a transition, but it also could be there considering the leaf. I wondered why an oboe would accompany the view of the Lorien leaf on the ground before we go back to the Fellowship Theme? I suppose there's no particular reason to associate the oboe with Lorien, but why not with Merry and Pippen, who dropped the leaf? The moment seems to be suggesting a communication between Aragorn and them, and the oboe has often underscored hobbit moments in the trilogy. (What is interesting is the way Merry and Pippen's arc is transformed - their first action involves leaf, as indeed does their last!) quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.18.11 The harsher material swells as Aragorn identifies the hand of Saruman in the affair, leading to the cue’s… Something intrigued me here: the long sustained brass notes. They reminded me somehow to the short track from the 'Fields of the Pelennor' - the heroic brass. I'm probably wrong when I compare it with that piece of music but strangely it keeps spinning in my mind that I will hear it again. I listened to that at smme. I couldn't quite hear the similarity, though I'll be sure to look at it again. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.18.44 …a full statement of the Mordor theme with raita soloist as the camera tracks towards the impressive completed Barad-dur bigature. The first time you can hear the Theme is just brass, right? The second time I hear the raita. Yes, another typo made late in the night. Brass, then rhaita. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.19.10 As Saruman says ‘together we shall rule this Middle Earth’, the Great Eye and Orodruin light up like Christmas trees. The orchestra swells to a full chaotic statement of the Mordor theme. I don't hear a full chaotic statement of the Mordor Theme here, I just hear rising notes, following the Mordor Theme (which I actually call Sauron Theme) and in the same atmosphere as we're still in Mordor with the camera. To me the rhaita has always sounded like an instrument that is dangerously unhinged! A really chaotic sound. So for me, those rising notes at the end make the statement of the Mordor theme (it tends to appear in connection with Mordor generally, rather than strictly Sauron), make the statement sound particularly chaotic. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.20.00 …strings… (in the extended edition scene where Saruman sanctions the felling of Treebeard’s friends) I see this as a string variation on the 'Isengard Five Beat Pattern' which normally is played by percussion. Not really on the Isengard Theme. The full Isengard Theme is, for me, a combination of its Beat Pattern and the 6 note motif, but I can speak of the Isengard Theme also when I only hear that 6 note motif, however I don't think we had that already without the presence of the Beat Pattern, am I right? For me, I only need the five beat percussion to call it the Isengard theme, though you're right to say there's more to it than that. What I liked about this bit was the use of strings for the percussion part. Have we had the six-note motif without the beat? I can't remember - but if it is anywhere, it would be in this cue, which contains the widest variations on that theme. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.20.12 …more brass… I strangely heard a fragment, i.e. two descending thirds, of what Magpie calls the Dies Irae Motif or what I also call the Descending Third Motive, a danger motif that is connected with the Ringwraiths and therefore also with Mordor and Sauron. But I don't think I should consider it being a variation on it, since we're clearly in Isengard and it might be a variation on the Isengard Theme, especially when we take note of what is following these four notes. I agree, there is a similarity to the Dies Irae theme, which I call the Ringspell. Here an instrumental of it for brass is suggested, and on reconsidering the Uruk-hai music earlier, I came to the conclusion that it was suggested there as well. This is interesting... quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.20.43 A slightly awkward transition to the expansive cue for the Wildmen rally takes place. Weird. I can't really figure out the use of this passage in the context. It just sounds really different… It's not one of Shore's better transitions between theatrical and extended edition material! quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.21.50 Choral elegy swells as those that remain in the village are cut down. Percussion builds as the young children reluctantly turn their back to the town and… I didn't really hear percussion here…More like strings and wind instruments This a type that comes from the way I take notes. I usually write S for strings, P for percussion, B for brass, FH for French Horns, etc. Here I've written a B that looks like a P, so when I was typing it up into the review, I thought I was describing a passage with percussion - and what I meant to say was brass. Specifically, I can hear some horns over the bed of strings in the final seconds of the cue. Apologies! quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.22.58 Bold brassy thematic material accompanies Eomer’s ride through Westfold back to Edoras. Exactly! Who's or what Theme could this be? Again, it won't be long before we know. I suspect the album cue, 'The Ride of the Rohirrim', will hold some answers. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.23.17 As Eowyn is seen running up the stairs to Meduseld, her theme is suggested by strings before… Never thought of it in that way, but now that you mention it, this could indeed be a suggestion or variation on Eowyn's Theme. The orchestration, sweeping strings, is the same as the one used for her Theme. Yeah, more a hint than a statement, but definitely a hint. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.23.56 As Grima appears from behind the column in Meduseld, this cue begins with sombre strings. The strings serve the double role of suggesting the King’s decline and Grima’s duplicity. Actually, I believe these first three or four ascending notes from the strings serve as a Theme for Grima. I heard it later again -that will be in the second part of your analysis- when Grima appears in the room where the dead Theodred lies and where Eowyn mourns. I have found it very hard to pick out the motific material for Grima as his 'theme' always seems to be buried amidst some pretty strong deep string underscore. Your suggestion gives me something to look out for. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.25.05 There is a lighter moment here as Eowyn is seen, before the strings/brass figure builds to the point of… What is this strings/brass figure you mean exactly? Sorry, this is the brass/string figure that appears as Grima mentions Eomer's 'warmongering'. We hear a figure mentioned here that builds in strength until the closing of the cue. The only interuption to its development is the brief moment when Grima and Eomer turn to Eowyn. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.27.30 Trumpet plays the first few notes of what has become known as ‘The Nature Theme’ (see below) as Pippin and Merry hear the talking trees and remember the Old Forest. I thought I heard a clarinet instead of the trumpet, but now I'm not sure anymore :S Sounds like brass to me, but then again I always find it hard to pick a clarinet out of crowd. quote: Originally posted by JAAV 00.29.41 As the Rohirrim spear hits Grishnakh, a martial motif for percussion is played. This figure later appears during the Warg Battle later in the film (and forms the opening seconds of the album cue ‘Helm’s Deep’). Wow! I didn't recognize this part! Can't wait to get to the Warg Battle! It definitely appears there, and I may have noticed it at Helm's Deep as well. quote: Originally posted by JAAV That's it! ^_^ I'll work on your second part today, Franz! Bye! Jelle Goodness, I better move on with it!
posted 11-25-2003 02:46 AM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Jaav: I don't really agree with you calling the theme you hear at 00.05.54 the Sauron Theme. There is nothing that would refer to Sauron or Mordor... But that's my opinion, of course ^_^ Jelle I'm with Jelle on this. If it is there, it is beyond subtle and probably better described as subliminal.
posted 11-25-2003 02:52 AM PT (US)

Jaav Standard Userer	Hi Franz, About the Goldenthal-reference... I listened to 'Adagio and Transformation' from the Final Fantasy Score and I agree with you now. It is indeed Goldenthal-like! I like it when people have repertoire-knowledge like you. I myself don't have it that much, although I'm training myself, LOL! I had to, since the task for this years music history course is building up a certain knowledge considering compositions, especially those from Russian composers like Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich and Scriabin. My professor is a true Russian specialist when it comes to that! Luckily I like them enough to listen to it, hehe! Ttys! NP: Pianoconcerto in F - Gershwin
posted 11-25-2003 03:19 AM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Jaav: I like it when people have repertoire-knowledge like you. I myself don't have it that much, although I'm training myself, LOL! I had to, since the task for this years music history course is building up a certain knowledge considering compositions, especially those from Russian composers like Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich and Scriabin. My professor is a true Russian specialist when it comes to that! Luckily I like them enough to listen to it, hehe! I would love to do a course that gave me time to go into that music. Then instead of describing those strings as Goldenthal-like, I might describe them as Shostakovich-like and bump up the pedigree of the remark a bit!
posted 11-25-2003 05:38 PM PT (US)

Wickenstein Standard Userer	I still think it's Sauron's theme over what used to be the title. It's an abreviated version with the first three notes and then a fourth to resolve it.
posted 11-25-2003 06:19 PM PT (US)

franz_conrad Standard Userer	quote: Originally posted by Wickenstein: I still think it's Sauron's theme over what used to be the title. It's an abreviated version with the first three notes and then a fourth to resolve it. I think I hear it. If it is a Sauron theme reference, what do you think it's doing here?
posted 11-27-2003 03:03 AM PT (US)

Jaav Standard Userer	Right, okay. These are the same three notes as used for the Sauron Theme, but I mean the same in pitch interval. As Franz puts it, why would it be used there? I think it's more used for something else. There are a few passages where I wrote this little motif might be used. Look at Franz's analyse part two. And tell me what you think Wickenstein. NP: Sen To Chihiro - Joe Hisaishi
posted 11-27-2003 03:22 AM PT (US)

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