I’m not sure I’m reading this exactly right, but no release date has yet been set for TTT. November and December haven’t been ruled out, but neither have any of the other months remaining in 2006. Don’t worry, I’m sure a decision will arrive before much longer.

>>>And what about the re-recording of the cue from Clint Mansell's Requiem for a Dream that was featured in the trailer for The Two Towers?>>>

>>>I don't think trailer music not composed by Shore has any place on the albums. It would be like including music from Rainmaker on the first set. I know he orchestrated the piece, but still, it's music from another film.>>>

Howard Shore had nothing to do with the Mansell piece, and so it’s not a part of this set.

Hey look, a definitive answer… I’m making progress!

-Doug Adams

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(...) Hey look, a definitive answer… I’m making progress! [/B]

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By the way, do you know if they are expanding the piece in the OST TTT (in the White Rider track) that introduces Shadowfax. Such a nice choral piece.

You can sync the OST to the film by starting the CD at 0:40 into the track, and the TE DVD at about 45:19 (as Gimli says "Gandalf!").

I can't wait to read Doug's notes on the White Rider theme...

>>>There are (at least) two versions of the choral piece when Shadowfax first appears: an alternate, on the CD, with string arpeggios underneath, and what seems to be a greater emphasis on the female voices; and the film version, which has horns instead of strings.
You can sync the OST to the film by starting the CD at 0:40 into the track, and the TE DVD at about 45:19 (as Gimli says "Gandalf!"). >>>

Yep, this is correct. I do not yet know which version of the Shadowfax sequence they’re going to use, but I have a strong suspicion based on the Prologue’s treatment in Fellowship. Doesn’t mean I'm right, though.

>>>I can't wait to read Doug's notes on the White Rider theme... >>>

Why, I was just working on that last night...

Once again, thank you for keeping us informed with all the info that you can give. This topic seems to get lost too easily on the FSM boards due to the seeminly 100s of posts each day, it doesn't stay in the stream of conciousness for too long!

Do you know if there are going to be any more updates to the official soundtrack site as far as FOTR goes before TTT is announced? Or do we have to wait for the book?

First of all, is it the same exact cue (i.e. same recording), and if so, will it be inserted twice on the complete recordings to coincide respectively with the film? >>>

It is the same recording played twice in the film, the second being tracked in. On disc, you will hear the music for these scenes as Shore originally composed it. Good call on the parallelism, by the way, though you may be surprised in how it actually manifests when you hear everything. You’ll see…

>>>Do you know if there are going to be any more updates to the official soundtrack site as far as FOTR goes before TTT is announced? Or do we have to wait for the book?>>>

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
But the insertion of the nature theme in that scene was a conscious decision, wasn't it? At first I wasn't sure about it, but the theme also plays during Theoden's battle speech on the Pelennor, so I suppose there's some connection there (although I have no idea what that could be)?

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[Message edited by Shire Bagginz on 04-01-2006]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>
This all goes to the realm of personal interpretation but you point is very good one. The Nature takes arms against the Shadow very slowly (reflected by the character of Ents) but when it does it is a great and terrible force. I do not see the Ents marching to Isengard as anything desprate but as the last resort to stop Saruman as the wizard has done something so offensive to Natural world that it cannot be tolerated.
Theoden's case is different. In the film he is a desperate dispirited old man ready to give in to the Isengard's forces as he thinks they canhnot be stopped. Aragorn rekindles his fighting spirit even if for a moment. They truly have no other choice but to attack or to be surrounded in the Helm's Deep castle. And the theme perhaps speaks of the unlooked hope and help Gandalf will bring.
These are my thoughts on it.

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Originally posted by Incanus:
I do not see the Ents marching to Isengard as anything desprate but as the last resort to stop Saruman as the wizard has done something so offensive to Natural world that it cannot be tolerated.

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Oh, but doesn't Treebeard say they might be marching towards their doom? I think it's in the film, and it's definitely in the book. The Last March of the Ents.

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Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Incanus:
[b]I do not see the Ents marching to Isengard as anything desprate but as the last resort to stop Saruman as the wizard has done something so offensive to Natural world that it cannot be tolerated.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, but doesn't Treebeard say they might be marching towards their doom? I think it's in the film, and it's definitely in the book. The Last March of the Ents.

To me, the theme seems to be transformed into a general eucatastrophy theme by ROTK. Or perhaps minor eucatastrophy theme, because it isn't used in the big climax. [/B]

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Yeah you make a good point Marian. That could be called Eucatastrophe theme instead It really describes the use of the theme well.
But in LOTR the idea of fading of the old world is very much at the heart of the book. I know that Treebeard is speaking of the Last March of the Ents and surely it is one since the world is changing and their time is ultimately over in the world. There could not be another time they could act so they had to act then for the good of the Middle-Earth. He of course knows there is a possibility of doom there but he acts instead of hiding.
That is implied in the book by his words.

And I think the Nature's theme is used in the ROTK finale just as the Mount Doom has exploded and we see Sam and Frodo in the middle of the fires of the mountain. There is clearly the Nature theme melody albeit in a sadder guise. Or atleast I hear it there.

Has anyone noticed this piece?

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
I've got a crystal clear MP3 of this piece from the BFME II game and I hear the Evil Times/ Sauron motif there.

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The alternate version of the Breaking of the Fellowship (which is the early version and was recorded by Mr Shore in New Zealand) wasn't included because it wouldn't have fit in the structure of the complete set. To include it would have meant having this piece of music after the arc of the music was already over.

I, too, hope that this version will be eventually released on the rumored "bonus disc". I've grown to like it more than the version ultimately used both in the film and on CD.

Christian

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Originally posted by Janck19:
but will this 'bonus disc' come out or is it just a rumour?

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Well, as far as I know, at this point, it still is a rumor. If my memory serves right, a rarity disc was in the talks in an interview with Peter Jackson that was featured in the big LotR issue of MftM, back in summer '04. Also, Doug Adams has mentioned this plan here and there and now and then, so I'd say that the possibility of such a CD isn't that bad.

If anybody knows more about this, please say so and/or correct what I just said.

Anyways, if a rarity disc is forthcoming, it would probably be after RotK Complete is out. Mal schaun...

Christian

[Message edited by Christian Kühn on 04-10-2006]

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Which editions: the theatrical releases, or the expanded releases?

Well, that's a good question! Probably both - it's really a matter of how much we can put out. And there will also be a disc of what Peter calls "rarities". These might be pieces that were composed and recorded, on the way to a certain piece, or things that we recorded that weren't in the film. Or a piece with a different orchestration.

A good example of a "rarity" will be on the bonus DVD that is part of the Limited Edition Return of the King soundtrack. It has a video diary about the recording of the score, as well as a special seven minute trailer from all three films. The third element, which I consider a "rarity" is a song called "Use Well The Days", which was a piece I started writing after thinking about Annie Lennox. I went to New Zealand in April, and met with Fran Walsh, who collaborated with me on "In Dreams" and “Gollum’s Song” and we thought about different artists that we might want to work with. Annie Lennox was at the top of the list.

On the way back to New York from New Zealand, I wrote Annie a letter talking about my process for the months ahead, and the film, to see if she was interested in it. When I got back, I wrote a piece called "Use Well The Days" that used words adapted from Tolkien's lyrics, because Fran hadn't started the process yet. Then when I met Annie in New York for the first time, I played her that piece - it was something I had written with her in mind. I had just put together a demo. Then she recorded it at Abbey Road during the summer.

As we've worked on all these films, we've created so many things, and so many ideas - they lead you on a path - and "Use Well The Days" did exactly that. It was like an early version of "Into the West". So it's on this bonus DVD - you can hear Annie singing it. It's not in the film, and it's not on the CD, but it was recorded during the making of his movie. That is a good example of a rarity.

There are many, many other things like that which came up throughout the process of working these last few years. Like compositional pieces that were written, and went a certain direction and were recorded - part of them might have been used in the film, but then I restructured or rewrote them. It's a process, unlike anything I've actually ever tried to do.

So how many discs do you suppose this box set might have?

I don't know - it's conceivable it could be at least 7-9 discs, maybe more! There's easily eleven or twelve hours, if it were complete. I know what people want is the music in the film, so I'm basing it on that premise. Would someone really want all 12 hours?

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I can tell you a surefire way to sell more of Doug's upcoming book is to include this rarity disc(s) with the book. I will still be buying it anyway but it's just a suggestion if you're listening Doug!

-Chad

Indeed, I checked the article in MftM as well:

In the future will you release your complete works?

Yes, I'm hoping to create a box set, which will be all the music from the films plus a rarities disc. This will include the Doug Adams book about the music.

Hehehe...it's there, black on white...

Actually, I like the idea of a bonus disk with the book...

It was conscious in that it was not accidental, but it was not the first plan, nor was it what Howard Shore composed for this scene.

>>>Well the Nature's Reclamation is also used in the cue when the Rohan Army is leaving from Edoras and in the Pelennor scene in ROTK. I think it also represents the will to fight against the Shadow and the basic Nature of Middle-Earth to resist it. It also manifests in the Free Peoples. But this is my musings that's all.
By this logic it would make sense to use the Nature's theme in the scene at the end of the Battle of Helm's Deep as Aragorn rekindles Theoden's hope and will to fight against the Shadow. But again Shore and the film makers may not have had this idea.
So Doug do you have an answer for this one? Was the use of the Nature's theme deliberate when it was tracked in the Helm's Deep scene or wasn't it?>>>

Again, yes it was deliberate – on the part of the filmmakers.

Ok, before I go more in-depth, a bit about the Nature Theme – or more specifically, Nature’s Reclamation. Nature’s Reclamation is a very general theme that represents Middle-earth’s resistance to the encroaching industrialization as embodied by the Orcs, the Uruk’s, Saruman, Isengard, Mordor, etc. (Or, I suppose you could boil that all down to Sauron, all others being extensions of his will.) I don’t know if you’d call it a Eucatastrophe theme, though I suppose you could. Really, it’s the theme of the machinery of the Eucatastrophe. The theme of the provider, the enabler, less than the event itself. It’s a giving theme. The moth is aiding Gandalf. The Ents are protecting the forests.

So what of the Rohirrim at Helm’s Deep... specifically Théoden? Unquestionably there are acts of selflessness here. Théoden, for all he knows, is riding to his doom. But are the Rohirrim really acting as givers... are they the machinery behind a Eucatastrophic event?* Does Théoden’s act really lead to victory at Helm’s Deep? No, it’s the intervention of Gandalf the White. Gandalf now exists in Middle-earth by the will of the same forces that govern Nature’s will. He has been sent back to tend to a task. And at Helm’s Deep, Gandalf is the giver. The Rohirrim are not his people, specifically. He’s bringing them aid. So you will find that in Two Towers there is a second Nature theme that specifically applies to Gandalf the White’s presence in Middle-earth, and it is this theme that originally underscored this scene in the film. It’s a subordinate Nature theme and much more specific dramatically. Before you go scrambling for your DVDs, this isn’t apparent in the film because of the tracking. But it’s gloriously obvious on CD when you hear the complete score.

[*I should note that the Rohirrim do eventually become givers—enablers of a Eucatastrophe—in Return of the King, so it makes more sense for the Nature’s Reclamation theme to be assigned to them here. (At Helm's Deep they're not really acting in defense of Middle-earth, they're defending themselves.)

Not only do the Rohirrim represent the purity and simple power of a rural lifestyle in Tolkien’s hierarchy, but in ROTK they’re actively serving the will of Nature rather than receiving its benefits.]

So, it is not inappropriate that Nature’s Reclamation should appear at Helm’s Deep in the final film because, yes, Gandalf the White brings about the eventual victory. (Heck, the Gandalf the White theme that illustrates his relation to the Fellowship plays over that final charge.) Gandalf is now an extension of Nature and the Reclamation theme certainly is germane to his character. But this The White Rider (in Nature) theme is much more specific, equally if not more appropriate, and draws significant dramatic parallels (you’ll see) without necessitating the back-to-back thematic repetition heard in the film.

It’s important to remember that in Lord of the Rings there are always about 12 different subtextual ideas occurring simultaneously. One of Shore’s great gifts has been the ability to tap into the essential ideas while presenting something with a beautiful musical form. Sometimes that was changed in the final film when the filmmakers decided to play a different dramatic idea that was equally as appropriate, but not as strong a musical device as Shore had originally conceived. It’s all a matter of opinion, of course, by I think that TTT’s multiple climax sit much better, musically, when Shore’s separate threads each reach a unique peak.

It’s also why I consider these CD sets to be so important, because in cases like this, they actually highlight alternate thematic interpretations. The Jacksons weren’t wrong to use the Nature theme here, but on disc we can get a better idea what the theme represented to Shore as a dramatic composer.

>>>Why decided you not to put in the the alternate breaking of the fellowship from FOTR which played in the EE end credits?

>>I am not Doug Adams, but I'll have a go at answering that question:

The alternate version of the Breaking of the Fellowship (which is the early version and was recorded by Mr Shore in New Zealand) wasn't included because it wouldn't have fit in the structure of the complete set. To include it would have meant having this piece of music after the arc of the music was already over.

I, too, hope that this version will be eventually released on the rumored "bonus disc". I've grown to like it more than the version ultimately used both in the film and on CD.

>>>>>

Christian is correct. I think I answered the question over on the filmscoremonthly.com boards at one point, and would include a link if I could remember it, but I sure you could search for it. Basically, there was no logical place to put this on the FOTR set.

As for the rumored Rarities Disc… well, it’s prefixed with “rumored” for a reason. But if you want to be technical, Return of the King is technically “rumored” at this point as well, not because it won’t happen, just because these projects are so huge, there’s no way they could be done in overlapping waves. It’s a One Thing at a Time deal. King, Rarities and the Book will be plotted out once The Two Towers box is put to bed.

…But I do like that idea of putting a CD with the book!

One quick question --
>>>>>there is a second Nature theme that specifically applies to Gandalf the White’s presence in Middle-earth, and it is this theme that originally underscored this scene in the film. >>>>>

This is the piece at the begining of the album track "Forth Eorlingas", correct? Or have we not heard it yet?

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Originally posted by Doug Adams:
But I do like that idea of putting a CD with the book!

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Thanks again for your in-depth answers, Doug. YOu know what I'm going to do once everything has been put out, said and done on this affair? I'm gonna weave my way through these threads here and over at FSM, get everything useful you and anybody else ever posted and make an addendum to your book.

Happy Easter, you Eggs!

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But this The White Rider (in Nature) theme is much more specific, equally if not more appropriate, and draws significant dramatic parallels (you’ll see) without necessitating the back-to-back thematic repetition heard in the film.

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I'm curious about this 'White Rider (in Nature)' theme. Is this the bassoon motif that appears in the unused 'Gandalf's Resurrection' cue from TTT and which is reprised on low brass during 'The Lighting of the Beacons'?

[Message edited by Jim Ware on 04-15-2006]

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I'm curious about this 'White Rider (in Nature)' theme. Is this the bassoon motif that appears in the unused 'Gandalf's Resurrection' cue from TTT and which is reprised on low brass during 'The Lighting of the Beacons'?

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OK, I think I know what you are referring to.

The bassoon motif (heard on T2T, #9, from 0:40 to 1:01) and the stuff trombones and tuba are burrowing their way through during The White Tree (best heard at 2:03 and from 2:12 to 2:25) are variations on the many arching phrases that Shore uses abundantly in LotR (and many of his other scores). It's a Shore "calling card", so to speak.

Most noticeable are these arcs in the Rivendell-related music and during the beginning of Gollum's Song, although there are myriads of places where they are being used in a multitude of different forms, shapes and ways. They even directly transfer into the first rising notes of Gollum's pity theme or the short scene in FotR where Isildur is being slain by the Orcs.

That the arcs play a very important role is obvious, but I am not sure yet as to what that role is (partly because Doug Adams wouldn't tell me... ). Obviously, they form some kind of connection between the many facets of the music, but I couldn't figure out a central point to them, where their connection lies. Personally, I wouldn't put Gandalf in the midst of it, but I'll make a daring guess...the One Ring?

Anyways, some thoughts from my side. Feel free to tear them apart.

CK