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Originally posted by gkgyver:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>the brass is playing a-minor, f-minor. Arpeggiate those chords, the a-minor chord ascending, the f-minor descending. Hear anything familiar?
<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yikes! Look, it's The Pity Of Gollum!

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Sakrament no amoi! You're always faster in replying in these regards!

I popped in FotR CR right after I read Doug's post, played it through, thought at "Gollum": "Hmmm...this sounds what Doug just said!" and...then hadn't Internet access until now.

DAMMIT!

Kudos, Herr Kröner!

You're forgetting that on this same thread(in 2005) it was supposed to be a release of all the CR,togheter.Then each,at a period of 6 months(and now we're almost in july,so 7 months have passed);and now probably more than 12 months because of the new dvd's.

Finnaly,i must tell you that i read carefully almost the entire thread(except the mindless/nonsense/unrelated to this topic mumblings).

Your comparison with FOTR CR isn't really justified because a) there was no LOTR release that year which could have caused a delay and b) the postponement was caused by legal issues (I believe).

Frankly, I don't know what you're upset about. Just recently (in the last issue of FSM I think) Shore said that the two other CRs are more likely to come out once a year because there's more work than expected, and to be honest, that schedule was always more likely than the rather ambitious "everything within a year" plan.

That a release date has been set already is nothing but a good sign. Ever thought about the possibility of releasing TTT and the DVDs together?

Just relax, it took them half a year to do FOTR, and TTT, just by the sheer amount of music is considerable more work.

And even IF TTT gets postponed because of the DVDs, it won't be more than three months (December).

…Actually, wait, don’t.

Beren, I’ll respond to your points individually but first, permit me, if you will, to tell a little story.

When FOTR hit the shelves last December, I got a very friendly call from Howard Shore’s office. (This is not unusual in itself, calls from his office are always friendly because he’s got a cool group of people working for him.) The call was essentially a congratulations for getting through all the Fellowship material (we’d just finished the website material a few days earlier) and to let me know that Mr. Shore was sending a copy of the set to me, so I’d have one of my own shortly. At the end of the call there was a pause then, “Hey by the way, you’d really better start looking at Two Towers, there’s going to be a lot of work on that…”

So after a week of evenings during which I permitted myself to look at something other than a computer screen, the next Monday I started to dig in. This one was going to be work, they were right. I’m drawing my material from the complete book, but whereas the FOTR material had nice rounded beginnings already written, and the ROTK stuff had conclusions in place, the Two Towers material was all middle paragraphs. Well, almost all—thank goodness for Rohan and the Ents! Anyway, I started banging that stuff into some sort of shape, and turned in a first draft of the notes late January / early February. My rough musical examples were put into place as were graphics I invented from DVD captures. Off to New York it all went…

…And it wasn’t much of a hit.

Ok, maybe that’s slightly paranoid, no one threw a fit. In fact, comments were nice—this is a good start—but essential gist was that it felt too much like middle paragraphs. Which is exactly what it was. Too much verbiage relating material to Fellowship or ROTK, not enough on the complex relationships within Two Towers.

Draft two came out about three weeks later. This time everyone was happier, but there was still the sense that it needed more analytical detail, less rehashing of the story.

Draft three was promised in about two more weeks… during which I ran off to speak with Howard at a symphony performance in Cleveland. So this draft was finished in an all night word bender, then sent off at about 3 in the morning. This time it was a hit. Howard’s assistant Alan had been going through most of the editing before this. Howard would read everything, but at this point in the process his comments were more general. Focus more on this, less on that, etc.

Draft three was good enough to go to Howard for specific comments. And when I say specific, I really mean it. Do you like the word “fulminating”? Yeah, well neither does Howard Shore! That’s just one of a handful of deep purple words he asked me to replace or remove. And I’m not even mentioning the specific musical comments. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to sound like I was descended upon by stern taskmasters who raked me over the coals picking over every tiny little word. Comments were always chased with, “It just stuck out to me, but you don’t have to change it if you’re not comfortable.” It’s a wonderfully supportive working environment where everybody is invited to comment on everyone else’s work.

Anyway, at this point we started to find out what graphics we could actually get from New Line. They don’t have hi res captures of every frame of the film, of course, so we have to see what’s in their vaults, and what can be of use to us. Sue from Howard’s staff also began engraving musical examples, most based on my reductions… Over the course of three or four years I’d been visiting NY a couple of times a year to research the written conductor’s scores. I’d jot down materials in the notebooks I kept, enter these into notation software, then send my examples off the Sue who would re-engrave them, and make them a bit slicker looking. Once in a while I’d find that the liners could use an example that I hadn’t jotted down, so I’d have to ask Sue to look something up and create a brand new image.

This all sounds like boring grunt work, but it actually makes a huge difference. We have a certain page count that we can’t go past because we don’t want to up the cost for consumers. This means whatever we turn in to Warner Brothers, we want to show that our page count can be achieved easily. Our mock layout will be copied (and tweaked a bit), but we want to demonstrate something functional. Everything from font size to borders to graphics come into play. We’re not playing with some artistically ideal <i>carte blanche</i>, this is an actual physical thing being designed. It takes a good deal of playing to make it work.

Draft four came and went, as did its notes. Draft five was dated at the beginning of this month, and came back just yesterday (6/27) with notes from Howard’s assistant (Alan), from Howard and from Philippa Boyens. So I spent the better part of yesterday afternoon reorganizing and rejiggering to incorporate all comments, and keep our page count acceptable. We’re down to smaller changes now, so they can be tackled in about a week, for the most part. I’m at 8,805 words currently, by the way, which means I’ve added 43 words and a whole mess of pictures without changing the page count. That’s not as easy as it sounds!

I’m hoping to get finalized track titles this week, as well as a few revised musical examples. Yes, every single dynamic and articulation marking must be checked for accuracy… even if the final excerpt comes out so small it could be printed on the head of a pin! And of course, I need to see if the changes I’ve made are ok with everyone. We’ll probably go through one or two more drafts before we deliver to Warner Brothers. Then after that, we’ll need to proof their work. The layout is critical. The people designing the booklet are not musicians, so we need to make sure that the proper musical examples appear next to the proper paragraphs, etc. while they’re keeping their eyes on visual aesthetics and trying to keep the pages from getting too cluttered.

So does all this sound pretty detailed and laborious? I mean, I know I’m not hauling bricks or mixing cement or anything, but this is pretty intensive work overall. And all this… all this concentration and effort… is just for the liner notes! Imagine the work that’s going in to the packaging. Imagine the work that’s going into the legal affairs and licensing. Imagine the work that’s going into <b>the music</b>!! That’s what it’s all about right?

There’s one chance to do this right. We get one pitch, one swing. If we’re taking a long time in the batting cages… well, it’s because the situation demands it!

Could this be done faster? I don’t know, honestly. Murphy’s Law probably comes into play… but I still think I’d say no. I mean, I guess a product of some kind could be assembled in less time. But really, I don’t think that something of the quality and substance towards which we’re aspiring could be done in a more compressed timeline.

Ok, if you’re still with me, now I’ll go into specific answers:

>>>It's almost july.What about some fresh news?What is Mr. Howard Shore doing?I'm starting to believe that the TTT:CR won't be released this year due to the new LOTR limited edition dvd's.Who would buy 2 LOTR new merchendise released at a period of 3-4 months?And they will also,probably,delay the release date for the LOTR:LE,so the new complete recordings seem far away.If they'll continue this way ,we'll get the ROTK complete recordings on the 10th aniversary.>>>

Beren, you seem to be very emotionally connected to these releases. That’s good, great even. But, please, don’t let that turn negative. At NO time has there been any official discussion of moving the TTT box set’s release date. Suggesting otherwise is both erroneous and misleading in the extreme. More on this below.

>>>This has nothing to do with the emotional,loving atmosphere we were presented in the appendices.Maybe it never did.Maybe it's just about money.More money.I probably (don't) understand how busy Mr. Shore must be,but he could've find time to deal with the new CR.Especially now that LOTR made rich(er) every cast/crew member of the trilogy.>>>

Absolutely NOTHING connected with the creative end of these releases has been motivated by money, and to suggest so… besides again being erroneous in the extreme… is positively insulting to Shore’s integrity. In fact, these sets are probably apt to make money for everyone EXCEPT Howard Shore, as he’s invested so much of his own money. And that being said, none of us will make any money based on sales. If TTT sells two copies or two million, it won’t change anything for us. We’re doing this carefully because our hearts are invested in it, and because we believe in the legacy of what Shore created. That’s it, pure and simple. We’ll drive our accountants nuts, but we’re head-in-the-clouds dreamers who still believe in the intrinsic integrity of art. Any time you see me mention a concern of sales, or number of units… that’s not because it means we’re pulling in bushels of cash each time some poor sucker forks over the dough for the set. (We’re not) It’s because we’re excited to see that people are interested in something we’re poured our effort into.

>>>Even the interest for the new complete recordings(or any LOTR new merchendise)seems to be faded.This thread,for example,looks like it's struggling to post new replies.And the ones that do appear,have nothing to do with the topic.>>>

If you’re looking for specific answers, in most cases I’m simply not allowed to give them yet. Has the set’s color scheme been decided upon? Yes, though I haven’t seen in yet, I know what it is. Can I say what? No, I can’t yet. Is the release date set? Yes, as of very recently, it is. Can I start posting it around the web? Well, no, of course not. There will be an official press release when everyone decides it’s the proper time. Do I know what unreleased bits of music you’ll now be able to hear? Do I know what happens at five minutes into the eighth track? Do I know how many discs it’ll be? Sure, I have to know those things to do my work. That I can’t say anything now doesn’t mean these decisions haven’t been very, very carefully considered. It means that the official announcement hasn’t yet been made, so we’ve not yet pulled the curtain back.

>>>In conclusion,i hope that Mr. Sore and co.(and all the Hollywood;perhaps even the western world)understand that people and feelings should come first instead of profit.I mean this is what the LOTR music is all about.Feelings,right?>>>

I’ll ask you here to perhaps pause a second and read again my comments above regarding the finances of this project.

>>>Yes they will release it(eventually).But i meant that they will postpone it,as they did with the Fotr:CR;and this time with probably at least a month,because of the Limited Edition DVD's.>>>

FOTR was delayed because of legal entanglements that altered the track layout for one of the discs. The lawyers in question contacted Warners at the last possible minute (which was certainly their right), so the date had to be pushed.

>>>You're forgetting that on this same thread(in 2005) it was supposed to be a release of all the CR,togheter.Then each,at a period of 6 months(and now we're almost in july,so 7 months have passed);and now probably more than 12 months because of the new dvd's.>>>

There was never a time when the complete recordings were supposed to be released as one single set—one set to rule them all!  There was never a time when the boxed sets were supposed to be released every 6 months. Both these comments were fan speculation. Fan speculation can be a ton of fun, when it’s A) understood to be speculation, nothing more, nothing less, and B) when it’s kept positive. Beren, I’m not sure what would make you think that the TTT boxed set will be delayed by 12 months, but that’s a pretty negative spin on speculation, isn’t it? Let’s ignore for a second that it’s awfully difficult to “delay” something that hasn’t been officially announced, but what on earth would make you assume such a thing? The DVDs and CDs are coming from the same parent company, so it’s not like the CD people didn’t know the DVDs were coming and vice versa. As EldarionSonOfElessar says, relax. And I don’t mean that in a dismissive, belittling way. I mean it as a concerned friend. Take it easy. You’re working yourself into a froth for no reason.

I will tell you right here: The Two Towers: The Complete Recordings will be out this year. 2006. It will be out earlier in the year than FOTR: CR was. How much, how little? Just wait. I’m not saying because I’m not supposed to say… and because it’s simply too early to begin talking about it.

>>>Finnaly,i must tell you that i read carefully almost the entire thread(except the mindless/nonsense/unrelated to this topic mumblings).

P.S.:This is a film music message board,not one for advertising pills.>>>

I can only assume that this comment is directed at me, and if I am indeed coming off as an “advertising pill” then I am genuinely sorry, Beren. I’m here answering questions because… well, because people are asking questions. Really, the smartest thing I could do is say nothing, because I’ve put myself in the line of fire by offering to spill a few beans here and there while keeping a tight lid on others. But my enthusiasm gets the better of me. I want to be able to tell you everything. Heck, I’d like to buy a few six packs and have you all over to my basement to play you the early edits, show you the current draft of the notes and tell you stories.

That seems a little impractical, though, doesn’t it? Not to mention professionally and legally ill-advised.

But I’m new at all this. Maybe I’ll develop the tight-lipped stony demeanor of a pro later in my career, but for right now, I’m still a bit giddy about the whole thing. You’re right, Beren, LOTR is about emotion, not money. It’s about a lack of cynicism, about enthusiasm. And that’s why I’m here. I’m not trying to ram this release down people’s throats. I’m not trying to convince you all that really, there was only one disc’s worth of decent material, so you should still shell out $60.00 for a third of the product, then sneering out the top of my new convertible while my silk neckerchief billows in the wind. (For the sake of clarity, I’ll stress that I’m joking here… TTT:CR is NOT going to be only one disc long, I don’t have a convertible, and the day I start wearing silk neckerchiefs…. man….)

So, ok, I’m like six pages in now. See why Howard has to ask me to cut the notes back once in a while? 

Beren, I’m glad you care. This set is made for people who care. But LOTR is also about trust. Think about that.

>>>Late next month I’ll be speaking in New Jersey

Where and when?

Is this engagement open to the public?

I live in New York and have an EZ Pass...>>>

According to http://www.creationent.com/cal/elf.htm, I’ll be at the Crown Plaza Meadowlands Hotel in Secaucus, New Jersey. (Good speakers call their agents, I check the webpage!) The convention runs from July 28 to 30, but I don’t know what day I’ll speak or what time. If they let me know in advance, I’ll post it here. It is open to the public, but it appears there’s a fee involved.

-Doug

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Originally posted by TheTennisBallKid:
So, Doug, about that eighth track, around five minutes in...

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Hehe...

I know that you say that you are unable to divulge a lot of information due to legal and moral reasons, but if you think about it you have given us vast insight and knowledge about this huge, all-encompassing project that you have undertaken. Before reading your posts about all the processes, procedures, etc. that have to be followed, I was quite ignorant to the whole thing. But now that I have a glimpse into your world I feel that it gives me a far greater appreciation to the time and care that has been and will be put in to these releases.

Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch, Doug. The majority of us stand behind you 110%. Once again, my hat's off to you for all your hard work and insight.

OK, I'm done shoving my nose up your rear for the day!

I was so happy to hear that this music is brought to us by "head-in-the-clouds dreamers who still believe in the intrinsic integrity of art." That guarantees that these CR sets are so wonderful as they are.

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I will tell you right here: The Two Towers: The Complete Recordings will be out this year. 2006. It will be out earlier in the year than FOTR: CR was. How much, how little? Just wait. I’m not saying because I’m not supposed to say… and because it’s simply too early to begin talking about it.

-Doug[/B]

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Aha! Here's hoping that my prediction of November 21st holds true. The Tuesday before the busiest shopping day of the year, Black Friday.

-Chad

Thank you for:

1. Explaining the process. I have just graduated (by about 6 days) with a graphic design degree and not only does the process in general fascinate me, projects such as this are of particular fascination and then you add the LOTR subject matter in and I'm captive.

2. Taking the time to explain the process. I often find myself answering the question (in various venues), "Any news on the boxed set?". I do so by pointing them to this thread. "There are probably other places to get news", I write, "but this is the thread I watch and one that Doug visits frequently. As the 'public' face of the Complete Recordings, Doug is always generous with his time.” I have worked on projects like this on a much smaller scale and I KNOW how much work it is and you just spent a huge amount of time giving to us.

3. Being accessible. Point made already but as a secondary comment to another point and it deserves it's own number. You have been accessible and gracious from early, early in this process.

4. Being professional. I can sometimes sense that you'd really, really like to say more but you understand the boundaries you must respect that allow you to work with sensitive information. If you were less professional, you wouldn't be in the position you are in and I'm grateful that you have the opportunity to do the work you do.

5. Being temperate. I'm not always temperate although I strive to be. I admire people who can make their case, even when passionate, while still maintaining integrity. Nicely done today.

6. Just doing the work. Although I can sense the amount of energy that is infused into this project (having worked on my teeny tiny intern projects), I can't imagine ever being equal to the task myself. I simultaneously find myself wishing I could be part of this (as a graphic designer) and aghast of even considering such a concept.

It might seem that this response comes because I want to bolster your spirits after you’ve felt the need to explain and justify your actions and the actions of those you admire. But really, this response is prompted because today you shone out even brighter as the person I've always thought you to be. It’s important that people hear when they’re doing a fine job.

I too feel passionate about things and love to share my passion and have felt the sting when that has backfired on me. I trust you will find the equilibrium that works for you. But I do want you to know that I admire and value you and your work because of your passion and your willingness to share. I would feel the loss if you feel the need to close off some. And please consider that I may actually be able to speak for quite a few beyond myself since, in connection with my website, I hear from many people who feel the same admiration and affection for you and your work that I do.

Ooooh, you lucky little SOB!
I just got a glance at the conductor's score to the third movementof the LOTR symphony.

There's absolutely no need to defend yourself here, Doug.
I have to say that the efforts you and your team, especially the beyond-words-generous Howard Shore, put into these Complete Recordings is the ultimate love pledge to Lord of the Rings, and therefor film music in general.
While reading your post, I really felt sorry for complaining about those little glitches in the FOTR set.
I can't tell you how unspeakably happy and honoured I feel. And that is not only because these Box Sets roll on, it's because of the people behind them. They actually CARE for us admirers and fans. How pretty damn rare is that?

They take their time and are careful with these releases because they want to get them right! If it was really all about the big mamoo, they would rush these sets out as soon as possible.
I can only repeat myself: do you want TTT and ROTK to turn into Phantom Menace UE? Then support those guys, they deserve it!

Like Magpie, participating in that project would be like a dream coming true. I just love that music so much. That's why I'm writing about it, why I make my own piano transcriptions. That's also why write, play and listen to film music every day.
Howard Shore turned a know- nothing teenie into a music- loving and music- making young man, and I'll be grateful for that to the day I die.

There will always be sceptical people who don't really believe that there can be passion invested in such a product. Frankly, I feel sorry for those people.

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Originally posted by Magpie:
(And just fyi... the comment about the ‘advertising pills’ was not aimed at you. It was a response to someone who suggested the ingestion of ‘a positive pill’.)

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I'm glad someone pointed that out! I cringed when I realized Doug thought that was directed at him!

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Originally posted by Magpie:
5. Being temperate. I'm not always temperate although I strive to be. I admire people who can make their case, even when passionate, while still maintaining integrity. Nicely done today.
[/B]

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I have a hunch that Doug has a second job at a firm that specializes in dismantling old buildings and factories using explosives.

*cracks up*

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Originally posted by Jwlahn:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Magpie:
[b](And just fyi... the comment about the ‘advertising pills’ was not aimed at you. It was a response to someone who suggested the ingestion of ‘a positive pill’.)<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad someone pointed that out! I cringed when I realized Doug thought that was directed at him!

Thanks for all the great info and updates, even if they are tormentingly teasing at times! I'm looking forward to your book even more than the scores themselves (although it's a close race)![/B]

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That was me that said that to Beren, it was supposed to be a sarcastic remark because his thread was so darn negative that I wanted him to feel positive about the whole thing. I was not even close to "advertising" pills!

I want to direct a few thoughts toward Beren, since I suspect he (I will assume 'he' with an online male name. excuse me if mistaken) is reading these responses.

Beren, I want to believe you were having a bad day... or week... or month. And you had reason to feel some frustration regarding this project and it all kind of bubbled up in some harshly worded statements. I've read your first post here and I didn't get the sense that you were a troll deliberately stirring up trouble because you enjoyed it. I sense sincere frustration. If I'm right, then this seems like a good example of what happens when we let our frustrations and/or temper get the best of us when we speak. The ickiness of our frustration and/or temper just gets spread around to others. Perhaps I'm wrong and you have no regrets. But if you are, in fact, rethinking - not the questions you were asking, but the tone you took with people - then I would be willing to hear back from you.

Someone used the word 'cringe' (in regards to the 'advertising positive pills' comment). Yes, that was exactly my feeling. I cringed when I realized that a man with good intentions was feeling criticism that (in this small case) was not aimed at him at all. (Another example of how hurtful language is hard to direct with specificity). But I was cringing at the whole thing. Beren did not (IMO) set out to 'hurt' people (it's easy to sling hurt at 'the man' when 'the man' is a nameless face in a corporation) but he had.

I've often said that feeling pain makes us realize what is really important... what we really value. When we feel pain at a friend moving away, we really understand how important that friend was to us. I feel 'pain' regarding this brouhaha. (I get to admit that since I'm an emotional old woman.) I feel pain that a good man felt beat up and accused of things he would never intended. But I also feel pain that the discussion of something so dear to me (this music) has been invaded by a negative, hurtful tone. (I loved the suggestion of the positive pill for just this reason.)

My point is (finally, you say...) is that this makes me realize just how much I love this music. How much I love that HS and DA are willing to work at getting us the things we crave. HS once made a comment about obsession in a radio program that I recorded. I understand obsession. I know what it feels like and how it manifests itself. It results in wonderful products but is a double edge sword. It satisfies in that we produce work we are proud of and others find enjoyable, but is always ready to cut with the thought of 'not enough'... 'not perfect'...

Someone asked the question at another forum, "How often do you revisit the books or movies and when?" Surprisingly or not, many people turned the topic to the soundtrack:

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Whenever the mood strikes me, although I visit the books usually once a year all the way through. The movies, every few months, the movie sound tracks every week or so...

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Ditto on the soundtracks. I have them all in a playlist on my computer so I can let 'em all rip without interruption, and when they finish, I start right over from the beginning.

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I read the books at least once a year, sometimes twice and I watch the movies when I get the chance. The soundtracks, though, are a different story. I listen to some part of them daily. And I mean daily. I don't always have the opportunity to listen to all three, but I always find a way to listen to at least one of them.

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So, as painful as it is to see negativity associated with the music, it sure does emphasis how important it is to me. And I would enjoy seeing us turn our focus back to the music. Thanks for bearing with me.

Thirdly:

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Originally posted by AustinHusker:

Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

-Chad

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I am sorry if I sounded and tasted like that.This is the ultimate masterpiece we're dealing with and we souldn't let apples,peaches or any kind of fruits spoiling the bunch.For myself,i prefer grapes,but i don't mind apples either.If,however,they're bad and we say it,then we have a lack of respect to each other.In the end it could just be a problem of language understandig.I'm not anglo-saxon so i don't know if "letting bad apples spoling the bunch" is an idiom;and what it means.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:

There will always be sceptical people who don't really believe that there can be passion invested in such a product. Frankly, I feel sorry for those people.

[Message edited by gkgyver on 06-28-2006]

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Yes you're right.There will always be people like that.People who apparently want to destroy the "perfect" balance.But you shouldn't feel sorry for them,because even though they seem to be out of placed,they actually play an important part in the process of collectively enjoying and anallysing art and i our case,heavenly music.What part?Keeping the real perfect balance.You can't have an equaly,just world without both sides ositiveness and negativeness.

P.S.:Mr. Doug Adams i want to tell you that the "pills" reply was not directed to you,but to another member of this fellowship.It appears that the fellowship is broken.But i'm not Boromir.Or i'm just "rumbling and grumbling".

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Or i'm just "rumbling and grumbling".

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Look! Another Ent! Ta-runa-burarum-tormolinde-hasceconda-lumbule-tumbura-runa-ron!

I've been coming back to this thread for a long time now and after reading Mr. Adams last post, I just wanted to add my thanks to all the team working on the CR's.

Like many people here I love this music and am so glad that there are terrific people working on it. It's been really great to get an insight into the process and I hope it will continue.

And just in case Mr. Shore is reading, thank you for this wonderful music.

Now,related to the music,i have a comment.I don't know where did he find the inspiration to produce so many great themes(ecxept the obvious sources of the books).I think he told on previous dvd's/or i read somewhere some of his 19th century chosen composers.What comes next it's a bit weird and "detailish".I wanted to say if anyone noticed that right at the end(probably the last 5 seconds) of the first three minutes of Vivladi's "La Notte" flute concert(op.10,nr.2) you can hear a resemblance to about 3-4 seconds of the beginnig of the smeagol/deagol scene in Rotk-when we first see the worm;around 3-4 seconds of that scene seem to me that coincide with the part i mentioned from Vivladi's concert.
It would be nice to know that Mr.Shore had an idea related to those maybe 4 seconds from Vivladi and developed a shire theme for smeagol and deagol laeding next to that hauntig piece of music from "A storm is coming" which was supposed to be the fight between the two hobbits.Anyway,i know it sounds odd but i thought at that for quite a while.I wonder if Mr.Shore developed or was partly inspired for making those magnificent themes of Middle-earth by just mere seconds of some famous composers from the past.Seconds that don't mean much(they probably are an extension to a movement,they're in the middle of an allegro et cetera),but he created unexpected beautiful sounds perfect for Tolkien's Middle-earth.

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Originally posted by jonathanharrell:
This is a question for Doug Adams regarding the track titles on the FOTR:CR. Two tracks are lifted directly from book title chapters ("Three is Company" and "Conspiracy Unmasked"), yet the events in these two chapters do not correspond to the events in the film. The "three" referred by the first title is, in the book, Frodo, Sam and Pippin. What was this meant to refer to as far as the film goes? That the fellowship is now "three" (Frodo, Sam and Gandalf)? The "conspiracy" in the book (that of Sam, Pippin and Merry against Frodo) is not present in the books. Is this conspiracy meant to represent the "secret" of the Ring? I would appreciate your clearing this up. Thank you.

[Message edited by jonathanharrell on 06-30-2006]

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Not Doug, but replying nonetheless. Firstly, Howard Shore has almost excusively used chapter titles from the books as track titles, especially on the single disc OSTs. I wouldn't read too much into why these track titles were chosen, though. "A Conspiracy Unmasked" would, in the film, only aim at Sam Gamgee's eavesdropping outside the window. It was also one of the few chapetr titles not used as a track title in the first palce, so maybe Shore simply used it because of that.

Same with "Three is Company"...yes, it should be "Two is Company", but again, Shore took it because it was still available.

What could use some shedding light onto by Doug (was that correct English?) is some of these legal problems when it came to naming tracks on the CR. Why couldn't they use the appropriate titles from the OST, or didn't they want to?

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Originally posted by Christian Kühn:
Same with "Three is Company"...yes, it should be "Two is Company", but again, Shore took it because it was still available.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Christian Kühn:
[b]Same with "Three is Company"...yes, it should be "Two is Company", but again, Shore took it because it was still available.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean we should expect to see titles like "The Scouring of the Shire" for ROTK? [/B]

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I will respond to all the above messages later this evening. This week was full of Two Towers deadlines and Film Score Monthly Podcasts, so I haven’t been on the net much. Full responses within a few hours!

(Should curiosity arise:
http://media20a.libsyn.com/podcasts/fsmpodcast/FSM_Podcast_012.mp3

…and…
http://media20a.libsyn.com/podcasts/fsmpodcast/FSM_Podcast_013.mp3

…the two latest episodes.)

But in short, thank you all for everything!

Back soon,

Ok, let me begin with my head-lowered thanks to all of you for the very, very kind comments above. It somehow seems unfair that I get to work on something that I’m passionate about, then get to hear thoughtful words from you excellent and admirable folk. It’s almost like being complimented for winning the lottery! I should offer immediate gratitude to Mike Skerritt, Chad, Miko, Eldarion, Marilynn, gkgyver, jwlahn, ruckus, Christian… and to Beren as well. Communication on the web is a tough deal, and I know that it’s easy to be misconstrued. Beren, you may not have said exactly what you hoped to, but I’m still glad there are people like you asking questions, be they pointed, polite, or anything in between. Questions need answers. Answers need thought. And thought improves everything. If the Two Towers set is better in any way the FOTR set—and I believe it is!—it’s because of this chain.

Really, I need to thank everyone who’s kept this thread thriving and polite at nearly 5-and-a-half-hundred posts. As you all know, this is an incredibly rare phenomenon!

Ok, then, on to the specific questions…

>>>So, Doug, about that eighth track, around five minutes in...>>>

As of right now, track eight is only 2:54 long. Well, you asked!

>>>It would be nice to know that Mr.Shore had an idea related to those maybe 4 seconds from Vivladi and developed a shire theme for smeagol and deagol laeding next to that hauntig piece of music from "A storm is coming" which was supposed to be the fight between the two hobbits.Anyway,i know it sounds odd but i thought at that for quite a while.I wonder if Mr.Shore developed or was partly inspired for making those magnificent themes of Middle-earth by just mere seconds of some famous composers from the past.Seconds that don't mean much(they probably are an extension to a movement,they're in the middle of an allegro et cetera),but he created unexpected beautiful sounds perfect for Tolkien's Middle-earth.>>>

Howard certainly knows the classical repertoire, but really his only intentional LOTR homage—as indirect as it may be—is in the trilogy’s Wagnerian finale. Now that doesn’t mean that there aren’t some close musical neighbors here and there (and, by all means, check out Magpie’s site if you care to discover more), but these are all accidental and, generally, pretty fleeting. Believe it or not, it really was Tolkien’s good old opus that fueled Howard’s imagination through this project. He had a dog-eared, well-worn copy of the book tucked under his arm nearly every time I saw him during the composing process. I half expected to see it sitting on the podium when I arrived at the recording sessions… though I have no doubt it was at least sitting back at the hotel.

>>>This is a question for Doug Adams regarding the track titles on the FOTR:CR. Two tracks are lifted directly from book title chapters ("Three is Company" and "Conspiracy Unmasked"), yet the events in these two chapters do not correspond to the events in the film. The "three" referred by the first title is, in the book, Frodo, Sam and Pippin. What was this meant to refer to as far as the film goes? That the fellowship is now "three" (Frodo, Sam and Gandalf)? The "conspiracy" in the book (that of Sam, Pippin and Merry against Frodo) is not present in the books. Is this conspiracy meant to represent the "secret" of the Ring? I would appreciate your clearing this up. Thank you.>>>

I believe you’ve got it on both accounts, Jonathan.

>>>Then there is also the track labeled "Farewell Dear Bilbo" which is a quote lifted from the movie, stated by Gandalf as Bilbo leaves Bag End. The music that is presented in this track, however, is underscored for another scene that was added for the extended edition, in which Bilbo talks with Frodo about the death of his parents. The last part of this track underscores the dragon shaped firework fiasco. So the track title doesn't match the music. Just a little nit pick of mine, thats all. Maybe there is an explanation for it.>>>

I think the idea had always been to use track names in a somewhat nonlinear fashion here, partially as an artistic conceit, partially as a nod to the history of the project. Most of the tracks that made it to the 2001 OST were drawn from the books, but didn’t really correspond to the titles Howard used on the cue sheets. (I know, I know, we try to avoid the word “cue” whenever we can, but since “cue sheet” is a technical term, I’ll let it slide…) Several of those compositions ended up shuffled around as the film was edited once, edited again as a big hunk of material was cut out, then edited a third time once this material was added back in to the DVD cut of the film. Shore, of course, rewrote his compositions to fit each different film edit, but the pieces’ titles stuck. When it came time to create track titles for the box set, Shore returned to his original titles (since he couldn’t reuse the OST titles) some of which had been moved around just a little bit due to the film’s continual editing. So the pieces may no longer encompass the lines for which they were originally named, but Shore was always very careful to make sure there was some relevance to the scene at hand, and that the reference to either the text of the book or the film was accurate. So there you go… the titles are nods to Tolkien; to Jackson’s, Walsh’s and Boyen’s dialogue; and to the history of Shore’s original compositions’ titles.

Incidentally, for the Two Towers track titles Shore came up with a list of several possibilities for each track, then ran it by myself, his assistant Alan, and Philippa Boyens. Howard noted his favorites in cases where he had some, but we were all allowed to pitch ideas and offer suggestions. In the end, I believe there are at least a few titles that originated with each of us.

>>>What could use some shedding light onto by Doug (was that correct English?) is some of these legal problems when it came to naming tracks on the CR. Why couldn't they use the appropriate titles from the OST, or didn't they want to?>>>

No the legal issues weren’t related so much to track titles as to track breaks, and even then, the titles were never an issue legally. Although, you’re correct, the titles couldn’t be reused from the OST. These were different pieces, so they couldn’t retain the same titles. Not a problem, though.

>>>You mean we should expect to see titles like "The Scouring of the Shire" for ROTK?>>

Only if too much beer was involved.>>>

I think I can guarantee that the title “The Scouring of the Shire” will not be used in ROTK. As for too much beer being consumed… well, there the guarantees run out.

>>>I went over TTT again last night, to get me a little worked up again, and noticed the significant tracking during the Warg attack.

Was that scene originally so much different that no edits could have made the original score fit, or was the scene shot and finished so late that Shore didn't write new music for it at all?>>>

You are indeed correct about the tracking--it exists because the FX heavy scene was still being edited and tweaked late into the game.

>>> Actually, I always thought the Isengart theme there was tracked (in addition to the Khazad Dum piece).>>>

The Isengard theme is actually part of the original composition, so it’ll be on CD. The disc will feature the piece as Shore originally wrote and recorded it, so the tracking will not be there.

>>>Listening to the Grendel podcast now...hey, any news on Shore's The Fly opera?>>>

He’s hard at work on it, writing in the Second Act at this point, I think. He’s beginning very early rehearsals with the leads in the near future. You’ll kill me, but I was invited to dig through the score at my leisure last time I was in the office, and literally had no time at all to do so. It kept calling to me from the corner of Shore’s desk, but there was just too much work to get through. Next time, though!

Shore was quite interested in hearing about Goldenthal’s Grendel, by the way. I love that we live in a world where John Williams attends Goldenthal’s opera and Howard Shore is interested in the piece’s construction while he prepares his own. Really makes you feel like we’re living back in the days of Herrnamnn, Newman and Steiner. Or Stravinsky, Prokofiev and Shostakovich! Maybe not so much in terms of personally or output comparisons, but it’s fantastic to feel like we’re in the midst of an interlocked artistic community.

…And just to keep things on topic, the Two Towers liners have hit 9,052 words, track titles have been finalized and the design crew has been brought on to the scene. Online content is next, unless we see an incredibly quick turn around in the design, which would call our attention away.

So that’s all the news that’s fit to print. And I’m off to bed!

-Doug Adams

Hi everyone. I'm Earl from India. I've been a frequent visitor to this forum since last year at this time (I think it was August though) when I accidentally stumbled upon the name "Doug Adams". (Honestly), it's been great going through every single post and even though there's so much I've wanted to say and do in this forum, I didn't and haven't because (even more honestly) I always thought that the people behind all this were well, normal people (by which I mean professionals who are in it for the money and other things I don't know about). Nothing ever compelled me to join any forum of this sort and be a part of the community and the fellowship that they share. Not until now at any rate.

Because reading Mr. Adams' posts of the past few weeks, it just struck me as to how much passionate and sincere and down-to-middle-earth all these people really are. I mean, it's obvious that a lot of thought, effort and detail has gone into the making of The Complete Recordings of The Fellowship of the Ring and of course, The Two Towers (and I'm venturing to mention The Return of the King at this point), but to hear it from the person doing it in such a humble manner...well, it just sent me back to my cupboard, where I pulled open my drawer and with trembling hands (literally and I'm not exaggerating) held The Complete Recordings...and felt for the first time, the love's labour that went into every small detail that made the box in my hand what it is. A precise definition of the word "complete".

It's truly comforting to know that something of this magnitude has found it's way into the hands of caring and dedicated people like Mr. Adams who won't just "sail West" but who will see "the Quest" through - even unto the release of The Complete Recordings of The Return of the King...when an end will come to a great labour that we have all been witness to.

I love reading your comments and look forward to the TTT release.

Hey Rolltide,
There is audio editing software that lets you combine two tracks.
I just recently downloaded free trial versions of two diff products. http://www.blazemp.com/
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/products/showproduct.asp?PID=975&SPID=340

I just combined the first few tracks from the Phantom Menace and the resulting track was perfectly seemless.
It's also good for dividing longer tracks, like the short wrap-up pieces after the songs on the Fellowship and Two Towers original CDs.

Hope I don;t sound like a salesman!
honestly have just been playing with this software this past week.

I'm also another 15 month lurker who appreciates muchly Doug sharing his experiences with us.
Thanks Doug!!!