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Originally posted by gkgyver:
So, basically you're saying the difference is that Wagner used texts to support the music, but Shore's music was written to support the picture.
In a way, Wagner used a storyline to give sense to the music, would you agree with that?
So, the story actively helps the music, and the music gives weight to the story.

The point is that Shore wrote the music as if the film/story was conformed to it. Of course we KNOW better, but what difference does this make? The artistic result is pretty much the same.
Just recently I watched Das Rheingold on DVD (Bayreuther Festspiele), and it's not like the flow of certain pieces weren't interrupted by sudden changes in tone or style.
Where's the difference between that and the scene in Bree where the ominous Strider music makes way to Hobbit music?
Yes, Wagner *chose* to change the tone, whereas Shore had to because of the film;
but the dramatic arc, or whatever you want to call it, stays the same.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
<<The point is that Shore wrote the music as if the film/story was conformed to it. Of course we KNOW better, but what difference does this make? The artistic result is pretty much the same.>>

TF: This may very well be the case, perhaps Doug Adams can enlighten us on this score (pun intended!)... And if true, it means that Shore's score is indeed a viable piece of music in it own right able to stand alone(which the Complete Scores seem to demonstrate and may be a strong motive behind his providing them free of visual or dialogue distractions).

You seem to be taking my wondering if a symphonic development of the music might yet go further as a criticism of the Score. I did not intend that. Perhaps the problem with the Symphony, if there is one, is that trying to "expand" the over 10 hours of music found in the 3 scores into a 2 hour symphony is bound to be frustrating.

<<Just recently I watched Das Rheingold on DVD (Bayreuther Festspiele), and it's not like the flow of certain pieces weren't interrupted by sudden changes in tone or style.
Where's the difference between that and the scene in Bree where the ominous Strider music makes way to Hobbit music?
Yes, Wagner *chose* to change the tone, whereas Shore had to because of the film;
but the dramatic arc, or whatever you want to call it, stays the same.>>

Anyway, I distinctly recall Shore saying on the FOTR commentary track that he wrote the music like the picture was conformed to it.

Let’s take a long overdue look at some of these questions, shall we?

>>>The first 30 seconds of ROTK are really just referencing a new type of hobbit music for Sméagol and Déagol. But really, as in Two Towers, these opening bars are more setting style and mood.

Ah! Good to know. But why does this theme return a couple of times then?>>>

Gkgyver, could you possibly provide a specific instance so I can answer more directly?

>>>And what do we learn from this? Doug better be careful about his comments or he'll ultimately cause a war.>>>

Yeah, I’m slowly starting to get this!

>>>By the way, I've always wanted to ask you if you know anything about Shore's differences with PJ on Kong?>>>

I’m going to gave to go with the standard, “No comment,” on this one. See, I’m learning to be careful with my comments already!

>>>Éowyn: actually singing something; it's in the same kind of, say, The Lay of Beren and Luthien.

Théodred: "just" reciting a poem. No music involved.

Gollum: "So juicy-SWEEEEET". Dear God, no, please.

Treebeard: Entish rumbling and mumbling. No melody to be seen here, either.>>>

The cast performer will be announced in the press release… unless they’ve changed it since I last saw it. More on that later.

>>>I wonder if they for the FOTR:CR they called back the actors for ADR or just sing the songs again.It seems that they're not getting away so easily from the LOTR.Still sounds great.And i wonder if any of the cast members(except the ones featured in the music) have bought the CR?>>>

All of the cast performances in the FOTR:CR set came from the original film soundtrack. But that said, the Gandalf, Bilbo and Aragorn bits were actually recorded in a studio and not on set, so it was an easy, clean mix. That’s also why you hear a bit more on disc than you hear in the film itself. The Green Dragon song was actually performed and recorded on set, but that worked out great because the singing wasn’t backed by score anyway, and because the crowd noise adds just the right flavor to the tune.

>>>On a side issue, I, for one, would love to know if and when a DVD of the full LotR Symphony might be forthcoming..... Does Doug know, or more importantly, can he divulge any such highly classified info???>>>

I honestly don’t think that anything of this sort is planned right now, but only because so much effort has been extended towards the boxed sets. Perhaps in the future.

>>>You missed my question (reposted below)! If you get a chance I'd just like my mind set at ease.

I have the same question as I did for the FOTR release (if you are able to answer it). Will most of the tracks end with the track making life easier for us iPoders (meaning the music will not continue over 2 tracks creating a pause on iPods)? I'm pretty sure I know the answer already since FOTR did a great job with this but, was just hoping confirmation. I think FOTR only had 2 instances were the music ran together through a track break but, it was in soft parts of the music making it less noticeable. Just hoping for the same with TTT.>>>

Oops, sorry I missed this before. Yes, you can expect the same iPod-friendly structure in TTT, fear not.

>>>Hey Doug, I don't know if you're allowed to answer this, but will TTT:CR have that annoying rubber nub that holds the DVD? >>>

Ha! The cursed nub! To tell the truth, I don’t know. The mock ups of the packaging I’ve seen are all just PDFS of the printed materials… box cover and interiors, CD booklet and trays, liner notes booklet. I probably won’t see the thing in three dimensions until you guys do. That said, the design is all in the same style, so I would *guess* the nub will make its dubious return!

I’m going to have to go out on a limb, by the way, and show some nub love. I think that if you’re just not too aggressive with the little thing, it’ll work perfectly. The disc doesn’t pop on and off quickly, you have to wait a few seconds for the nub to sort of “ooze” its way through, which ultimately holds the disc more securely and safely. (By the way, in proofreading this paragraph, I’ve determined that it’s the most unintentionally inappropriate thing I’ve ever written!)

Incidentally, the packaging, even in this early form, is all remarkably beautiful. I honestly believe it’s even a step forwards from FOTR, and I didn’t think that was possible.

>>>Hey Doug, one question. When making the CR sets, do you have to re-record all the music that Shore wrote, or is it saved somewhere and you just have to edit it onto the CDs?>>>

These are all the original performances by London Philharmonic Orchestra that were featured in the films themselves. It was an incredible treat to have access to an orchestra of this caliber for such a long period of time (in the neighborhood of a month’s worth of session time for each film), and part the impetus for the CR project was to be able to capture this rare situation for posterity’s sake.

>>>Alright, alright, two questions! You mentioned earlier that the liner notes were nearly finished, and you posted the word count. Is it finished now? Just curious.>>>

We’re at 8,875 words at the moment. The first draft of the layout came out last weekend; we’ve sent our edits back to Warner and are awaiting their next version. We’re approaching “done,” but aren’t quite there yet.

>>>Hey! Does anyone have an inkling as to what colour the actual CDs and DVD will be? I read somewhere that the box will probably match the limited edition soundtrack releases, so I'm assuming it'll be a green box. But I hope the CDs/DVD have a colour as elegant as the cream Fellowship ones. This may sound silly, but I somehow can't comprehend green discs.>>>

I think the disc design (as in what printed on the plastic discs themselves) was the last design to come in on FOTR:CR, so I’m not surprised that I haven’t seen anything for TTT:CR yet. I’m thinking the FOTR:CR color will be maintained, but that’s just my guess.

>>>Personally, I would gladly exchange an inside-look about he CR for another featurette about the actual scoring process of the movie. I can never get enough of that!
And I doubt that after Doug's elaborate answering sessions here, there will still be questions unanswered>>>

Wow, thanks for the recommendation guys… it’s given me a few thoughts….

>>>Doug, is there any news regarding the "rarities" disc that might or might not be included with your book?>>>

There have been some discussions, to be sure, and while I think progress has been made, we’re all pretty focused on these CD releases at the time being. I think book details will begin to firm up in a few months yet.

>>>Why don't Shore and Adams like the term "cue"? Sorry, I must have missed that part of the thread.>>>

Heh, well it’s not like there a violent reaction or anything, but… The term “cue” in film music suggests, rightly or wrongly, a single self-sustaining composition. Howard approached The Lord of the Rings as a single 12 hour composition, and as such, he doesn’t like to look at it as a collection of pieces. Really, I don’t think he’s even very fond of looking at FOTR, TTT and ROTK as being separate scores. To him, it’s one score for The Lord of the Rings. I think for practicality’s sake, he’ll refer to them as three entities, but he’d probably rather not. Maybe this all sounds goofy and conceptual, but I think it’s indicative of the principles he brought to the project.

>>>Sorry to hear about your airline troubles, just be thankful that you were safe and sound on solid ground! Maybe instead you can just give your presentation here on the boards? Thanks for keeping us in the loop!>>>

I think that’s exactly why Howard felt that it was ok to announce the release date window. Yes, by the way, the date has already been decided. We’re not hedging out bets, we’re just waiting for the official press release to tackle that one. Speaking of, yes, the release is still forthcoming. I don’t know exactly when, because when people need to tend to personal affairs, that needs to take precedence. But it’ll be soon.

>>>I'm so sorry that you weren't able to make it out East yesterday due to storms. It is totally understandable; the weather has been a roller coaster here in NJ the past several weeks. Main thing is that you are ok and that's what is important. Thank you for the post letting us know. Take care and looking forward to your next posting.>>>

I felt so bad about all this. The airline wouldn’t even put me on standby because of the crazy storms… they did, however, offer to book me another flight, which somehow they neglected to notice would have been scheduled *after* my returning flight. Not sure which time/space paradox allows for that to occur! We almost had a last-minute save where I was going to give my presentation over webcam, but a sudden blackout here prevented even that. I guess at some point you just have to toss up your hands and decide it wasn’t meant to be.

It’s been a rough summer for travel!

>>>Hey Doug, how is the Annotated Score coming, and can you give us an estimate of when it will be online?>>>

The Annotated Score is slowly creaking to life. Every time I direct my attention towards it, there’s something in the liners to return to. At this point, I’ve transcribed all of Shore’s comments, and have begun putting pieces into place. Like FOTR Annotated, it should be online right around the time of the box’s release, and you should be able to find it easily on the official site.

>>>Also, where on the web might I find the press release (once it is online)?>>>

Hmmm, that’s a good question. I think ComingSoon.com got the scoop last time, didn’t they? Someone always seems to get the release a little earlier than everyone else, then spread the word around. I’m guessing the release will be hard to miss once it gets out!

>>>After all the anticipation, I hope I'll be able to afford it...the press release won't say anything about the cost, will it?>>>

Cost should be the same as FOTR:CR. One of the really cool (and challenging!) things about this project is that TTT:CR contains more music and more words, and yet everything has been fit into the same physical packaging. That’s taken a good deal of effort, I assure you.

>>>do you have any news on how your book is comig along and what exactly will be in it, thanks>>>

The book is coming along great, but as I say, I’ve had my attention more on the CR notes lately. The book content is to the liners as the Extended Edition DVDs were to the theatrical releases. The liners are a scaled back and re-edited version of the book content. In the book you’ll be able to see the full form of everything. So the sections from the notes: Themes, Performers, Instruments are all there… as well as the Texts sections from the Annotated Scores… in expanded form, but you’ll also have a few sections that haven’t been seen yet.

>>>By the way: your music mixers/ editors might want to consider raising the volume of the music a little.
Every time I want to listen to any LOTR Soundtrack, I have to turn up the volume.>>>

“My” music editors!? Sir, you overestimate my sway!

>>>a) is there any plan for a DVD of the Ring Symphony... and is there any idea of when it might appear (just generally: a year, two, after the Complete Recordings...)?>>>

I’m really not too sure. Personally, I find the Symphony to so closely resemble the structure of the OST CDs, that listening to them in sequence *nearly* recreates the experience. Now, that’s not strictly true, so I can see why people would be excited about a Symphony release, but since the boxed sets have taken the spotlight for the time being (as well as Shore’s work on The Departed and The Fly), there hasn’t been too much discussion about the LOTR Symphony right now. Please, don’t take that as a sign that it won’t ever happen…

>>>b) I would be grateful for some insight into why Maestro Shore chose to make the Symphony (which seemed to me to be more in the genre of six symphonic poems...) follow, again, the narrative of the film, and not, say, several movements each around a group of related themes: say, the Hobbits, the Elves, Rohan, Morder, etc... and then develop their themes musically.>>>>

I’ll dig into the opera / symphony debate below.

>>>By the way, another question I had for Professor Doug, if he is willing to entertain it: is it possible the full orchestral score of either the Symphony or the Complete Scores ever likely be published in some reasonably affordable form?>>>

This is not entirely out of the question.

>>>Can you tell us how long the TT: CR will be? I know FOTR's press release told us.>>>

It’ll be between three and three-and-a-half hours. The press release will mention a playing time, but it’s somewhat deceptive since there’s only one cast performance this time, and since that performance will perform over the orchestra (ooh, a hint!), and thus won’t add any playing time to the discs.

As for the questions regarding form and the LOTR Symphony…

I think the secret to understanding this work is to divorce yourself from the classical concept of the symphony. “Symphony” in the Twenty-first Century is a far more flexible term than in the past. Do I like the progression of the term? I don’t know. I guess I’m probably in favor of rattling the walls of any term that would seek to box up creativity, so maybe it’s a good thing. And besides, “tone poem” doesn’t really have the cachet or marketability, even if it is a more accurate term.

The form of the LOTR Symphony is dictated by drama and balance, but then so are modern multi-movement works such as Corigliano’s Symphony No. 1, or John Adams’ Naïve and Sentimental music, which is widely considered a symphony. And even with that in mind, if you think in terms of introduction – development – conclusion, or even thematic recapitulations, Shore’s work isn’t *that* far from the classical model of the symphony. Key centers don’t jive with the classical model, but even there there’s a solid structure as certain keys are associated with certain themes.

That said, all the material in the LOTR Symphony is right out of the scores, so, by proxy, the film’s editing really controls a good deal of the content. The transition from recording studio to concert stage involved shuffling of elements, but those elements were all dictated by the film and the story.

But hey, that’s the Twenty-first Century for you… nothing is purely this or that anymore. It’s a polyglot society.

The LOTR Symphony was created so that families could experience the music and the tale of LOTR live. So form and drama are kith and kin here. Would a further exploration of this material apart from the story and the film scores be fascinating? Sure! But I don’t think that was the goal of this particular project.

Maybe someday, who knows. Shore has a good number of concert commissions lined up now, so perhaps some deep-pocketed individual will eventually move him towards just such a thing.

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>>>By the way, another question I had for Professor Doug, if he is willing to entertain it: is it possible the full orchestral score of either the Symphony or the Complete Scores ever likely be published in some reasonably affordable form?>>>

This is not entirely out of the question.

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I have to say, this is quite exciting to hear!

Now, that ROTK theme I mentioned can distinctly be heard a couple of times:
first over the title sequence, then over Frodo's line "The days are growing darker" (or around that time), then when Frodo and Sam pass the statue of the fallen king ("these lands were once part of the kingdom of Gondor") and finally after the argument at the pool, when Frodo grabs Gollum's hand (this could be just my perception though).

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"there’s only one cast performance this time, and since that performance will perform over the orchestra (ooh, a hint!)"

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*fingers crossed* on this...

Thanks, Doug. What I want is a long article on the graphic design of this project. I don't know how you could top the CR-FOTR, either.

And yet another interesting tidbit

PS: you might want to check out our little LOTR music quiz at http://groups.msn.com/SMME/musicdiscussion.msnw

*putting on the face of a smiling salesman*

I do think it is interesting that there is such a change from the FOTR set, which contained every song heard in the film, even those that the music didn't conform to (Bilbo singing "The Road Goes Ever On" as he leaves Bag End). Was this a specific decision?

Oh, and I've never had a problem with the nub.

I think the problem is more about replacing the disc then taking it out, and so this is how I do it...place the disc exactly on top of the nub. Once it's there, I place my thumb, Aragorn-ring-finger and Galadriel-ring-finger on the central transparent part of the disc (right near the center), press down very slightly and turn it clockwise, remember not to crinje, and there I have it, DVD secure in it's place with rubber nub oozing through (with a little help from the help, of course)...and you're ready to take on the not-so-annoying-anymore rubber nub on TTT:CR.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Why am I suddenly reminded of Seinfeld's infamous "move"?

"I'm just rubbing two sticks together and you're running around with a Zippo!"

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If only for the excellent performance of Sissel during the solo's (wich I think are much better than on the soundtracks).

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The only problem I have with my nub (lol) is that it is placed a bit off center (or so it seems) so that the dvd comes into contact with the indentation in the box, in which it rests, so I can't completely push the disc down all the way, evenly. It is secure though, so no real problem.

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...since there’s only one cast performance this time, and since that performance will perform over the orchestra (ooh, a hint!)...
-Doug

OK, I gotta weigh in on this one again... First, if it has to be choice between Eowin's lament for Theodred and Gollum's little fish ditty, well, that's a no brainer.

But... that brief moment is one of the few times when poor little Gollum is his happy self, free of his Ring addiction... And if "The Road goes ever on..." made it, why not this? True his is not the voice of Lauritz Melchior of Pavarotti, but it's a charming interlude and would be sorely missed by some of us, no? And it certainly is not so long as to infringe on any other music's time. Poleeez, get them to reconsider...

We wants it, my presshus, we does!

So it's coming out in October 2006!

Wonderful! I now get to look forward to The Prestige and then TTT:CR. Not too long away.

I have two question for Doug, if he doesn't mind.

1) Does this edition fit on 3 CD, or we'll have another extra CD?

2) Are the mock ups of the packaging you have seen similar to these photoshoped images from this spanish blog?

1) Does this edition fit on 3 CDs, or will we have another extra CD?

TF: Let me butt in here: I think Doug answered this one when he wrote:
<<Cost should be the same as FOTR:CR. One of the really cool (and challenging!) things about this project is that TTT:CR contains more music and more words, and yet everything has been fit into the same physical packaging. That’s taken a good deal of effort, I assure you.>>

The key words being "the same physical packaging" and since he also said there were 3&1/2 hrs of music, which divides up into about 80 minutes for each of 3cds, and we know that much can be fit nowadays onto one cd... you get the point.

Of course, if the artwork is as the linked site has it, I cannot help liking seeing The Wizard in White on it...

Timdalf (!)

I think that there's one "big" thing that makes The Two Towers score stand out from FOTR and ROTK, and that is the music (both choral and orchestral)that is associated with Gandalf the White and Nature's Reclamation. I think we all know this, we just haven't said it "out loud". Just think of the amount of discussion about it; there's a lot. The Gandalf/Nature music seems to have a grand, powerful, mystical, ethereal, and organic quality to it that's just stunning to say the least. Of the different categories of themes, I think it's one of the best and most unique. I'm sure we're all really looking to forward to getting to hear it with all the rest of the music.

QUESTIONS FOR DOUG ADAMS: Will the End Credits music on the CR be like the OST or the film? On track 12 of TTT: OST, there's a choral part that comes in (during the warg attack) and it isn't there in the film. Instead, there is the hardinger fiddle. Will the CR have (all of) the choral part at a "reasonable" volume? (I absolutely love that choral part!!! It has such a beautiful, ethereal quality to it.) Thank you, Doug.

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Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
So nobody (me included) knew that there was an orchestra in there... interesting.

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Of course, with Photoshop, I could've made those pics from off FOTR:CR (why does the THE TWO TOWERS text look a strange shade of yellow to me?? Maybe its just the cones in my eyes)

...I did a google translate of that (Spanish??) page and look what's written just above the second image:

<i> "On the other hand, hopefully the edition follows in the line of the previous one, like this other photoshopero assembly that I have done" </i>

The FOTR CR was red so, blue is probably going to suite Two Towers, and green for ROTK.

P.S.:There will definitely be 3 cd's and 1 DVD.You can(almost)clearly see it.However i can't read the tracks' titles.

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Originally posted by Beren:
How come a Spanish site got those pictures first?Something smeells fishy.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by EdgarP:
2) Are the mock ups of the packaging you have seen similar to these photoshoped images from this spanish blog?

Thanks!<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

keyword photoshoped

Just wanted to make sure that everybody knows that Edgar didn't say they were the real thing.

The box will most likely look very similar to it though, especially if Doug said the physical packaging is the same as the FOTR CR. Blue makes sense because of what I said a few posts above.