I own all the soundtracks of the Lord of the Rings films and I love them. It's mind blowing to think how Howard Shore could compose such beautiful music.
Last year I had purchased the complete score of the FOTR. I was somewhat dissappointed with the packaging. Why is it so flimsy? Mine tore at the sides. Why did they have to use cheap cardboard?
My one wish is to perhaps see released on DVD film footage of Howard Shore conducting the LPO during the recording sessions. Interviews, etc. Something like behind the scenes footage and something similar to what we saw on the DVD that came with the ROTK soundtrack. Any hopes/chances of seeing such a DVD released in the future?
Looking forward to seeing Doug Adams book on the LOTR music released. Early next year?

Cheers!
Pierre

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Originally posted by Petrus:
(...) I was somewhat dissappointed with the packaging. Why is it so flimsy? Mine tore at the sides. Why did they have to use cheap cardboard? (...)

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P.S.: Did anyone notice this http://derhobbit-film.de/indexengl.shtml ?I wonder if(if it's true) Mr. Howard Shore will come back to Middle-earth to compose the music for The Hobbit?

I have to second orbital's question. I can't really see the problem.
Well, I can see what you mean, but I don't think it's as bad as you say it is.
Honestly, I don't know what you're doing to your box that it got teared apart. I had the entire thing (sometimes even just the case with the 3 discs) in cars, suitcases, and handbags, and I've never noticed damage.

The CRs are meant to be collectible items. Just don't step on it and everything should be fine.

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Originally posted by Beren:
I hope it's 24th October.

P.S.: Did anyone notice this http://derhobbit-film.de/indexengl.shtml ?I wonder if(if it's true) Mr. Howard Shore will come back to Middle-earth to compose the music for The Hobbit?

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That seems to be a "wishful thinking" site.
Hope the project happens, but there doesn't seem to be anything concrete about it yet.

About the credits: don't the three songs count as exclusive end credits material? They were written by Howard Shore (at least Gollum's Song and Into The West) and intended for the credits sequence.
Plus, Howard (anyone else feel uncomfortable calling him by his last name? It's wierd, but it feels too unpersonal) did write thematic codas for the finale of all three credits, all of which are available on the OSTs.
Beyond those (song and coda) and in the vein of the "storytelling" idea, I don't think original score for the credits would make sense. As it is right now, I already find the Rivendell theme in Fellowship's CR a bit off. Not because it's musically wrong or anything, but because it's irrelevant for the storytelling.
I doubt Howard Shore ever wrote exclusive credits material, let alone record it.

And we'll have heard all the tracked music earlier in the CR where it was intended. In my opinion there's really nothing to recommend it being included on the CD release.

If it's included I'll just burn a CD with the OST track instead...

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I wonder if(if it's true) Mr. Howard Shore will come back to Middle-earth to compose the music for The Hobbit

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I can't wait!

[Message edited by TheTennisBallKid on 08-16-2006]

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Originally posted by vdemona:
>I don't know why Reprise went with a different color scheme than what New Line established for the entire rest of the Trilogy merchandising<

I've often wondered at this myself as well. Seems silly.

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Do not fear, we’re firing on all cylinders. No release date delays, no snags. Just busy!

I’ll try to answer questions tomorrow, if I have time to do so.

Enjoy your weekends!

People who are interested in these CRs know TTT will be released this year. And they know the design will be similar (not to say the same).
And people who are willing to buy it, but don't actually look forward to it won't wait for an official press release. They'll find this thing in stores or websites, during christmas shopping at the latest.

We know it will be out by the end of october. The press release was supposed to be published about two weeks ago, so the date is pretty much set. After all, Howard Shore told Doug to announce it.
That the official word isn't out yet is probably caused by small alterations in the design. Think about it, if the press release was held back because the people responsible for it were busy, it should be out by now. I could imagine they want to release the statement and the package design together, so that's probably why there's no official word out yet.

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Otherwise the CDs are just going to come with a slip that has my phone number on it so you can call me and I’ll read you the notes I didn’t finish in time!

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P.S.:Looking forward to news from Doug Adams.
P.P.S.:No heartfeelings.

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Originally posted by Doug Adams:
Doug is working like crazy to get everything done. Otherwise the CDs are just going to come with a slip that has my phone number on it so you can call me and I’ll read you the notes I didn’t finish in time!

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Actually, we should buy him a six pack of his favorite kind!

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Actually, we should buy him a six pack of his favorite kind!

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Then, on the same documentary, we hear a fragment of an alternate version of Sawise The Brave. Any chance of hearing the full piece on the CR?
Also, in the same "alternate version" vein, as Mr. Brouceck (can't remember his first name) tells us that Howard Shore is incredibly busy as a composer because he orchestrates and conducts, we see Howard conducting an alternate version of the scene in which Merry tells Pippin there won't be a Shire anymore. It has a richer orchestration with gentle horns.
If I'm not mistaken, the film version of this "cue" is tracked into the "It's the one place we're trying to get to" scene. Or the other way around.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say: how will these things be handled? I mean, if there are two versions of one cue, both must somehow be made available, or not? I'm just wondering, since it seems to me that attaching a couple of alternates at the tail end of disc 3 (after the credits) wouldn't really fit well into the "storytelling" idea.

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And I've also got a purely musical question about FOTR's liner notes: in the analysis of the Fellowship theme, you mention that the melody itself is in a minor mode, while its harmonisation is in major.
My question is: how do you (with the "you" being not personal) know the melody is in minor? Don't you need a chord or a chord progression to determine minor or major? I would think that since the harmonisation is in major, the theme is also in major ... ?

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...Sorry if that was utter nonsense, it made sense in my head at least.

I do believe I owe you a round of answers and updates. Can’t say I’ve got an overwhelming amount of news to report, but here goes:

>>>I'm quite confident (knowing absolutely nothing, obviously) that we'll have ROTK by the end of 2007.>>>

This is indeed true. ROTK’s release window is already tentatively set.

>>>By the way, I don't think I like the prospect of having a track that includes "Uglùk".
But I got used to "The Fighting Uruk- Hai" too, so maybe it won't be that bad.>>>

There are more TTT tracks than FOTR tracks, so the names can be slightly more specific. Oh, and Uglúk’s accent needs to point the other way!

>>>Hey *Doug* (I think I'm missing something...oh, its the Mr. ) thanks for the answers. Still a bit curious though. You said that "the image has to be something iconic and representative of film’s story as a whole". True. But wouldn't that image of Saruman defeated by Gandalf be great? The one from ROTK:EE, when his staff is broken and he has those tears in his dark eyes? Sorry for playing the pest.>>>

Oh, I didn’t mean to suggest that Saruman wasn’t used because he wasn’t iconic, I was just explaining the thought behind the cover shots that *were* used. You’ll just have to wait to see who or what makes the covers this time out.

>>>there is also the big chance that this release will be like last time with FOTR being pushed back from november to december, therefore TTT might get put back into november.>>>

The elements that precipitated the FOTR delay are not in any way attached to TTT.

>>>ALSO FOR DOUG - NOT THAT THIS MIGHT BE A BIG ISSUE BUT WHATS UP WITH HOWARD SHORES SITE, THATS BEEN IN THE LAUNCHING PEROID FOR CLOSE TO A YEAR NOW>>>

I’m afraid I don’t have any info on this. Dan Goldwasser and Warm Butter are behind the Howard Shore site… with Shore’s own crew supervising in the wings. I’m sure the site will launch when they feel the time is right, but even that is a presumption on my part. I’m not in that world.

>>>although the window between TTT and ROTK looks to be pretty small!<<<

>>>You sure got us talking on this little blurb, Doug!>>>

As the best I can do is offer a blurb now and then, I try to choose them carefully!

>>>I can't wait to hear the Warg scene as Shore scored it, it will be interesting to play it as the movie rolls on this scene...>>>

Homemade isolated TTT scores will offer a very enlightening look into this film’s process, I think. You’ll be amazed at how many little bits here and there were altered in some way. I’m working my way through the Annotated Score material now, and I think that for Disc One alone I’ve created nearly 10 “Unused Concept” boxes.

>>>Hmmmm, what will the track title be, "Ugluk Adds to the Menu">>>

>>>*One of the track titles has the word "Ugluk" in it.>>>

Darn it, what have you guys got against that accent over the “u”!?

>>>For Mr. Adams, our great hero... ....About the End Credit question I had...I wasn't talking about the Fan Club Credits, but the End Credits. I know that the FC Credits music will not be on the CR, of course, but I was asking about the section of tracked music during the End Credits. It's something like this:

OST(trk 19)
Gollum's Song
Eowyn's Theme
Rohan Theme & End

FILM
Gollum's Song
(tracked from TT)
Eowyn's Theme
Seduction of the Ring Theme
Forth Eorlingas-Beginning
Diminishment of the Elves Theme(FOTR trkd)
Rivendell Theme
Evenstar
('regular')
Rohan Theme & End>>>

Well, let’s just say that the OST version was cut down and the Film version had some tracked in bits. You’ll hear what Shore originally wrote, which exists somewhere in between.

>>>Also, about the Wolves of Isengard "cue" , in the film it has the Isengard theme before going silent with the smack of the 2 forces. Is that Isengard rendition from FOTR or original??? (I'm thinking of the 2nd use of the theme in FOTR, during the Pass of Caradhras...hmmmm...)>>>

There are a large number of changes in this composition, so I’ll just say, without being too specific, you *will* hear the Isengard theme. I’ll be freer with details another time.

>>>I don't know if this has been discussed in this thread yet (and apologies if it has been), but I don't know why Reprise went with a different color scheme than what New Line established for the entire rest of the Trilogy merchandising: green for FOTR, rust for TTT, and blue for ROTK. This is especially odd considering that both Reprise and New Line are TimeWarner subsidiaries.>>>

You know, this was honestly all decided before I was in the fold, so I don’t know where the color decisions came from. In fact, the only color story I ever heard while the project was ongoing was that they considered making ROTK gold. Now, I don’t know if that was the DVD or the CD… but, I did overhear the discussion.

>>>Except that line by Doug about the window between TTT:CR and ROTK:CR being small. Sounds interesting. I think that would be because there's just so much music in ROTK as compared to FOTR and TTT. Also, couple that with the work that needs to be done on the Book, if they're planning on a simultaneous release (alongwith a "rarities disc" huh??) and a year seems a pretty short time to get so much done.>>>

You’re pretty close with all this. Overlapping projects and release dates will keep everyone quite busy for the coming months.

>>>I don't get it.How could the reason for the small window between TTT and ROTK be the fact that there's more work on ROTK:CR?Shouldn't be the contrary?Anyway,if Mr. Adams said that the window will be small,then there's a good reason to be happy.And i am.>>>

“Small window” here refers to a very brief pause in the process… meaning that ROTK is going to be so enormous that everyone’s going to move almost immediately from TTT to early ROTK work. No one’s going to be resting between projects for long!

>>>I own all the soundtracks of the Lord of the Rings films and I love them. It's mind blowing to think how Howard Shore could compose such beautiful music.
Last year I had purchased the complete score of the FOTR. I was somewhat dissappointed with the packaging. Why is it so flimsy? Mine tore at the sides. Why did they have to use cheap cardboard?>>>

Sorry you’ve had trouble, Pierre. I don’t think the boxed set is designed to be a portable product, more of a shelf item. I’m guessing I’ve open and closed my copy about as many times as anyone, checking and rechecking things here and there, and it still looks brand new. But I’m sure if I started taking it on the road with me… well I know how *I* feel if I’m on the road too long!

>>>My one wish is to perhaps see released on DVD film footage of Howard Shore conducting the LPO during the recording sessions. Interviews, etc. Something like behind the scenes footage and something similar to what we saw on the DVD that came with the ROTK soundtrack. Any hopes/chances of seeing such a DVD released in the future?>>>

Maybe. The publishers are definitely interested in including some sort of multimedia content with the book.

>>>P.S.: Did anyone notice this http://derhobbit-film.de/indexengl.shtml ?I wonder if(if it's true) Mr. Howard Shore will come back to Middle-earth to compose the music for The Hobbit?>>>

The Hobbit, should it actually materialize, is probably a good number of years away. That said, I know that Shore has expressed an interest…

>>>I doubt Howard Shore ever wrote exclusive credits material, let alone record it.

Howard wrote the gorgeous Bilbo's Song for the ROTK fan credits, that's appropriate because it marks a sad goodbye to the fans. And I'm quite happy with that.>>>

Yes, he wrote that beautiful, beautiful theme… it’s the absolutely final variation on the Shire material and it could turn a stone-hearted cynic into a poet. I remember getting a call from London during the ROTK DVD recording sessions. They had a few questions for me regarding fan scroll music, and mentioned at the time, “Oh, Howard wrote one more song for the boys.” I was shocked, because he wasn’t in the practice of writing new pieces for the credits. “He just felt like he should.” How great is that?

Other than the songs, Shore didn’t write any new “material” for the credits in terms of new themes, but many the arrangements are unique to the credits. I particularly love the setting of the Rohan Fanfare that ends TTT’s credits.

>>>I think a more pertinent question would be: what is the release date for The Hobbit: The Complete Recordings?>>>

I’m sending my Starbucks tab to your house…

>>>I'm really eager to have a look at the design. If they really outdid Fellowship, that thing must definitely be something.>>>

You’ll definitely recognize it as FOTR’s progeny. But, I think it’s even more sophisticated in the details.

>>>DOUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHERE ARE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surely you're not busy on a Saturday?!>>>

I was! And I will be again this weekend.

>>>MORE NEWS IS NEEDED, ITS ALMOST GOING TO BE 2 MONTHS UNTIL THE TTT IS DUE AND STILL THERE IS NOTHING ABSOLUTELY OFFICIAL EXCEPT A SUPPOSED RELEASE TIME>>>

Well, if makes you feel any better, I’m listening to the complete edit of TTT as I’m typing this.

Ok, that probably didn’t make you feel much better. Sorry!

Everything is moving ahead. I’ve been very hard at work on the Annotated Score. As I mentioned above, there’s an enormous amount to discuss in this one.

The latest draft of the liners just came in from Warners this afternoon, so after a quick trip to the gym, I’ll spend the rest of my night proofing it. From a very cursory scan, it looks like most of the layout issues have been resolved, so things are very, very close.

>>>I say we buy the man a beer! Three cheers for Doug!!!

Actually, we should buy him a six pack of his favorite kind!>>>

Well, since this is Tolkien, shouldn’t that be nine beers? In fact, we’ll talk about that a bit in the liners… nine, that is, not beer. Beer won’t even be mentioned until the final example of Dwarf music is heard in ROTK.

On second thought, let’s keep away from the beer for right now. I seem to have enough trouble keeping on the subject as is!

>>>'nother question for ya, Doug: I know Howard "pays homage" to Wagner at the very end of ROTK, but does he "pay homage" to Rosenman(animated LOTR score, I'm sure you know that )??? Thanks a bunch!>>>

Wagner’s is really the only homage Shore’s placed in the score. But what a moment, eh?

>>>I rewatched the scoring featurette on the TTT extended DVD.
Now this one's for Doug: PJ says that there are actually just 10 or 11 minutes of old themes in TTT, but surely he must be mistaken? Or does he just count the clear, obvious statements?>>>

To be perfectly honest, I think this was a bit of spin. There was a big fuss regarding the Oscars and Shore’s Two Towers score. Basically, there was a ruling that came out of the music division that year that disqualified sequel scores because it said they often relied on past music, and because people were already familiar with the music, it would give these scores an unfair advantage with the voters. So off the bat, Two Towers was disqualified. Of course, as we know, that’s nonsense. Shore’s score includes references to past themes, but it doesn’t repeat *any* large scale passages verbatim. The score is an entirely new composition, and in fact one of its great strengths is its continued development of established thematic material mixed with entirely new thematic material, all set in entirely new compositions.

Anyway, Shore stated his case and was asked to write a paper to the Academy explaining and clarifying his position. Much of the LOTR crew got behind this and really pushed to make sure people understood that TTT was an entirely new score. (Unfortunately, the buzz about TTT being disqualified was a bit much to overcome, and Shore’s score never was nominated anyway.) Jackson was still very much in this mindset when TTT’s DVD material was being prepared, and since he is not a trained musician (though he has great instincts), he was enthusiastically praising Shore’s originality, though perhaps not in the most musically accurate way.

>>>Then, on the same documentary, we hear a fragment of an alternate version of Sawise The Brave. Any chance of hearing the full piece on the CR? Also, in the same "alternate version" vein, as Mr. Brouceck (can't remember his first name) tells us that Howard Shore is incredibly busy as a composer because he orchestrates and conducts, we see Howard conducting an alternate version of the scene in which Merry tells Pippin there won't be a Shire anymore. It has a richer orchestration with gentle horns.
If I'm not mistaken, the film version of this "cue" is tracked into the "It's the one place we're trying to get to" scene. Or the other way around.>>>

Good question here. (Mr. Broucek is Paul Broucek, by the way, New Line’s Executive In Charge of Music for the LOTR films and a big part of the reason that Shore was able to express himself the way he was. Broucek has been an absolutely tireless supporter of these scores, and of the Music of LOTR book as well.)

Anyway, in the case of the alternate Samwise the Brave piece, this was an entirely different composition that wasn’t used in the final film. You’ll have to wait a bit to see what happens with this recording (sorry, no hints on this one yet!), but when you listen to your TTT:CR set, you’ll hear the film version in the appropriate spot.

If music was trimmed or a small section tracked in the final film, you’ll hear the appropriate measures restored to the way Shore wrote them. If there’s a completely alternate composition, you’ll hear the composition with which you’re familiar in the sequence.

In the case of the Merry scene, this was not an alternate composition, just an alternate couple of measures that were investigated, then abandoned. Neither Shore not Jackson were completely satisfied, and so these few measures were rewritten until both men were happy. This was all part of the process, however. Sometimes two beats were rewritten. Sometimes a composition would be performed both with a solo instrument included, and with that instrument excluded. Sometimes Shore would conduct the orchestra to elicit a slightly different dynamic in the performance. These types of things will not be heard—for now—because they’re really part of the sketchpad of the LOTR scores. You may hear some of this one day, so that you can hear how the shape of a five minute composition was altered when three measures at 2:37 seconds were tweaked over the course of 15 takes. But there are terabytes of this stuff, and someone would need to go through it all and find which examples are actually interesting and illustrative of some point before it could go before an audience. After all, you don’t want to hear 939 takes where one instrument is slightly out of tune, right? This is why I always chuckled a little when people fussed over the non-literal use of the term “Complete Recordings.” The literal complete recordings would run about 30 discs per score, and require you to pay over a thousand dollars for hours and hours of flubbed takes.

>>>And I've also got a purely musical question about FOTR's liner notes: in the analysis of the Fellowship theme, you mention that the melody itself is in a minor mode, while its harmonisation is in major.
My question is: how do you (with the "you" being not personal) know the melody is in minor? Don't you need a chord or a chord progression to determine minor or major? I would think that since the harmonisation is in major, the theme is also in major ... ? >>>

Well, let’s look at this from two ways. First, pitches do not need to be stacked vertically (i.e. chordally) in order to indicate a certain harmony. Play a major scale. Play a minor scale. Right there you can understand the harmonic implications without ever actually playing harmony. It’s harmony by context.

Now take a D-natural minor scale: D E F G A Bb C D

(There are other D-minor scales, incidentally, such as D-harmonic minor, which includes a C#. You could also use a B-natural and a C#, which would be D-melodic minor. These are both byproducts of functional harmony. The scale we’re talking about here is D-natural minor… or, modally speaking, D Aolian. There many other modes available as well… Miles Davis used a little D Dorian here and there to great effect. If you’re really interested it stretching your harmonic sense, I’d suggest you pick up Slonimsky’s Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns, which is just fascinating.

Anyway, the above scale is unquestionably minor, yes? So what if I were to harmonize it as (one chord per note):

D Major
C Major
F Major
Eb Major
F Major
Eb Major
C Major
D Major

There, I’ve harmonized a minor scale with major (and slightly Shore-esque) harmonies. If that D-minor scale is my theme, then I’d just have pulled off the same trick Shore did with the Fellowship theme.

The Fellowship theme, however, is far more diverse and interesting than my boring minor scale “theme,” but I’m sure you get the point.

D is clearly the tonic pitch in this theme. The key signature will carry one flat (if a key signature is to be used… often chromatic writing such as this ignores that nicety altogether). So to the eye, if would look the same as F Major (the parallel major), but a quick harmonic reading will show you that you’re in D.

This isn’t really too innovative or unusual—John Williams uses the same type of effect for the opening bars of the Imperial March—but Shore certainly makes the most of it. I should point out that the theme isn’t always harmonized like this. There are time when Shore simply lets the theme be totally minor, especially when things are looking grim for the Fellowship.

As for the question of the dominant, you’re right, the Fellowship theme doesn’t close with a V – i cadence. It closes III – VII – i. But even that isn’t too unusual if you consider all the modal medieval music written before Bach and his ilk began to standardize functional Western harmony.

So now Shore’s concept of ancient / modern music really begins to make sense, huh?

Good to hear it!

>>But even that isn’t too unusual if you consider all the modal medieval music written before Bach and his ilk began to standardize functional Western harmony.<<

I'm hesitant to ask questions because I'm so aware of the fine line you walk with information. But this one's itching to be asked. You wrote: "Other than the songs, Shore didn’t write any new “material” for the credits in terms of new themes, but many the arrangements are unique to the credits." You've indicated Bilbo's Song was written especially for the credits but you used songs/plural. Does that mean that the song Sissel sings was also written for the credits? I can live with waiting for CR-ROTK, but the subject came up.

One question for you, have you ever pitched the idea to Howard Shore for a Q&A session here on the boards? Maybe to conincide with the release of TTT:CR? Of course this would be dependant on H.S.'s available time.

>>You’re pretty close with all this. Overlapping projects and release dates will keep everyone quite busy for the coming months.>>

Hmmm...now I don't know whether to pity or envy you guys. But thanks for all the info Doug. No matter how much or how little you say, you always seem to find a way to keep this thread alive And good luck with the liner notes.

Well, so its ten unused concepts on disc one alone? Where have I been? And that gold ROTK? Hey Doug, that's what I was asking you about, think you missed it. (Don't blame you) However, your book or the rarities (whatever) disc, any ideas on the design(s) as yet? Know its too early, but wouldn't it look good if the design was based on the CR designs? In gold? silver(mithril)? And you don't have to answer this if you don't know the answers right now. I know how it feels to tell people that things haven't been decided as yet