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As for the question of the dominant, you’re right, the Fellowship theme doesn’t close with a V – i cadence. It closes III – VII – i. But even that isn’t too unusual if you consider all the modal medieval music written before Bach and his ilk began to standardize functional Western harmony.

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To put it with your own words: sir, you're stretching my musical horizon with medieval music before Bach

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Anyway, in the case of the alternate Samwise the Brave piece, this was an entirely different composition that wasn’t used in the final film. You’ll have to wait a bit to see what happens with this recording (sorry, no hints on this one yet!), but when you listen to your TTT:CR set, you’ll hear the film version in the appropriate spot.

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So, has it been decided yet how to deal with those "entirely different compositions"? You don't have to tell us what they are planning to do, just say YES or NO

And since you brushed on the topic "Star Wars", let me ask you a simple question:
which trilogy do you think is more complex, Lord of the Rings or Star Wars? I think this is a battle that will go on as long as good vs. evil exists.
And since you're already reading this post, if you had to pick one score of each trilogy as your favourite, which ones would you chose?

Feel free to talk like a private person and not like one of New Line's henchmen

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Darn it, what have you guys got against that accent over the “u”!?

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Nothing, I just don't know how to type it.

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And since you brushed on the topic "Star Wars", let me ask you a simple question:
which trilogy do you think is more complex, Lord of the Rings or Star Wars? I think this is a battle that will go on as long as good vs. evil exists.
And since you're already reading this post, if you had to pick one score of each trilogy as your favourite, which ones would you chose?

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Which trilogy is more complex? Hard question. Very hard. Can't answer. Sorry.

*Testing 1, 2, 3...*

It doesn't work... Am I supposed to hold down some of the keys? How do you do it?

With my Linux keymap, I simply type the accent ' followed by the letter u to get an ú.

Comparisons of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings are a bit unfair in my opinion. While I agree that the LOTR material is much more intricate, the idea of developing themes over the course of a trilogy wasn't really established when Williams did The Empire Strikes Back, which could be considered one of the first 'modern' franchise scores (well, there was Prokofiev's Ivan the Terrible).

And regarding the Oscar contraversy over The Two Towers; it is ironic that the second film would be disqualified from competition for being overly familiar while the third film, which has, comparatively, more thematic material carried over from the previous two, would win again. I mean, I would understand that point of view if The Two Towers was arranged from the Fellowship material by Ken Thorne with a reduced orchestra, but that was hardly the case.

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And picking out one score per trilogy doesn't require comparison either.

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Heh, I thought you wanted us to compare the scores of SW and LOTR.

Empire has the best score of the OT, IMO. Sith's score is the best of the PT, and the best of the entire saga.

As for LOTR, well, I find it very difficult to pick a favorite as they're all so brilliant. But if I must, I'll choose...

Yay, it works!

And I agree about the ESB as the best of the OT, but I doubt ROTS could top that for me (I'd have to have access to a complete score or, minimally, watch the movie a few more times). The TPM score is actually my prequel favorite in spite of its UE treatment.

[Message edited by weyhoops on 08-24-2006]

In any case, in the words of Veruca Salt from CATCF, "Make time go faster"!

Okay, I always assumed that the soundtracks were flawless, textwise, so I was a little disappointed to find 3 major typos in the FOTR:CR set.

2 are in the booklet - Caradhras is spelt Caradrhas and Cirith Ungol spelt Cirith Ungul. And WAHHHHH, the 3rd typo is on the CD. Aragorn is spelt Aragon (Theme for Aragon and Arwen).

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Originally posted by Swashbuckler:
Well, I would say that of the original Star Wars trilogy, my favorite score is The Empire Strikes Back, in many ways the most ambitious score of the entire series and the introduction of one of the most iconic themes in movie history. Of the prequels, I'd have to go with The Phantom Menace, which presented a very different soundscape than what had been previously established, and much of what I found interesting about the prequel trilogy scores was Williams' dovetailing that very ambient idiom with the more thematic style of the original trilogy.

I reserve judgement on the Lord of the Rings scores until I hear all of the Complete Recordings. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but ever since I got the CR of Fellowship, my estimation of that score as a purely musical work has increased immeasurably - and watching the film was a completely different experience after hearing the score in complete form.

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Anyway, to quote Doug Adams:

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Don't panic!

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Anyway, to quote Doug Adams:

Don't panic!

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Friday's not quite gone...

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I think it would be announced early in the morning. So, essentially, Friday is gone...

Now, Lord of the Rings is a little different. Although it may seem a little fanboyish, I think Howard Shore got better with every reel he had to score. I don't mean this thematically, I believe he knew quite well where he was heading, but as a composer. He got so much better in Two Towers, but in Return of the King, I feel he took a quantum leap. In comparison to the previous two, ROTK sounds so much richer, texturally as well as musically. Of course FOTR and TTT are anything but pale, but ROTK beats them.
The extended battle on the Pelennor features maybe my favourite epic action piece I've ever heard: Eowyn and Merry fighting on the battlefield.
Those diminished chords are just ... huge!

[Message edited by Beren on 08-27-2006]

[Message edited by Beren on 08-27-2006]

<<Edit: Also, the last tracks when the hobbits return to the Shire leading up to the Grey Havens, all beautiful reprises of Shire/Hobbit themes.>>

>>>'nother question for ya, Doug: I know Howard "pays homage" to Wagner at the very end of ROTK, but does he "pay homage" to Rosenman(animated LOTR score, I'm sure you know that )??? Thanks a bunch!>>>

<Wagner’s is really the only homage Shore’s placed in the score. But what a moment, eh?>

Indeed it is, and a sublime moment on its own and doubly so for us Wagnerites as well!

Shame on me for not reading your liner notes to F-CR more closely, but I just noticed this quote in the Intro:

'Jonathan Dean, Education Associate and supratitle translator for the Seattle Opera, asserts that, “The Lord of the Rings actually has more to do with Wagner’s Parsifal than with Der Ring des Nibelungen. Tolkien’s writing has a very Roman Catholic world vision, which has more in common with Parsifal than Nibelungen; Nibelungen is about Old Norse Gods and there’s no vestige of any kind of Christian thought. Parsifal is all about compassion, renunciation and accepting death and all that Lord of the Rings is about at the heart.” '

Not again to get off topic, nor to tempt you away at this crucial moment as you come in for the finish of TTT, buuuut...
Sorry, Mr. Dean is really off on this one. The only statement I agree with is his last...

First, while JRRT was definitely a devout RC, I really fail to see anything distinctly RC in it. Christian, yes, emphatically so. But actual distinctly RC dogmatics or or ecclesiology or spirituality, no. In fact, JRRT's firm emphasis on free will is quite unRC, to my way of thinking.
Further, to say Nibelungen has no vestige of Christianity or that it too is not about compassion, renunciation and acceptance of death is really to have missed its central point. Try the finales to Die Walkure or Gotterdammerung! That is exactly what they are all about, and could be considered very pre-Tolkienian eucatastrophes! I think a serious case could be made for saying that it is actually about the destructive effect of irresponsible passion, and thus leads right into the chastity theme of Parsifal... Not to mention other parallels like Spears as a main stage image. Wagner himself noted that the Grail was the Rheingold transmuted... and so on and on...
Finally, the other great influence on JRRT was what he called the Northern ethic which permeates the Norse and Germanic sagas Nibelungen in based on and thus it too. That ethic is all about renunciation, acceptance of death, and what Galadriel calls "the long defeat."
So it is eminently appropriate for Shore to have hinted at a Wagnerian coda to the RotK score, Tolkien's cranky protestations to the contrary!! ;-)
To my ear Shore's final phrases most resemble Parsifal's, and Tristan's too, but with Walkuere not far behind and last Gotterdammerung... But while being in their same mode, he is imitating none of them, but incorporating the style of them all. An epic ending to an epic work, indeed!
To any of you out there who want more in this vein, I can only say: try RW out. You will not regret it.
Someday some very bold filmmaker will surely take on these works and give them to us with images worthy of the music and subjects they demonstrate...
Someone once asked PJ, after LotR where do you go from here?... I have some suggestions!!!

Tim Fisher

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Originally posted by Timdalf:
[B]Originally posted by Doug Adams:

First, while JRRT was definitely a devout RC, I really fail to see anything distinctly RC in it. Christian, yes, emphatically so. But actual distinctly RC dogmatics or or ecclesiology or spirituality, no.

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I always felt that the role played by Varda/Elbereth, and the Elves' veneration of her, was very much reminiscent of the Virgin Mary and Catholics' veneration of her.

I always felt that the role played by Varda/Elbereth, and the Elves' veneration of her, was very much reminiscent of the Virgin Mary and Catholics' veneration of her.

So it might seem, except... My key word here is "distinctly":

First, is Varda/Elberth in any way the Virgin Mother of the Saviour of Middle-earth?

Second, Orthodox Christians also hold the All-holy Ever-virgin in the highest veneration, but with an entirely different theology of the reasons for and significance of her virginity and role and a thus a different theology of her death and afterlife. So even if some kind of vague parallels with her might be imputed to Varda, the distinctly RC theological implications of their veneration of her are not even implicit in Tolkien's legendarium.

I think all Dean was doing was making a vague general and conventional statement that since Parsifal is Christian in its mythos it also has some RC elements to it, using RC to mean any Christianity with some "churchiness" to it. That too is so utterly imprecise as to be almost an empty way of making his point... whether one takes it from the Tolkien or the Wagner side of things.

The proof is that I think Wagner in Parsifal was far more RCish than Tolkien despite being, if any kind of Christian at all, a Protestant, and actually more of a post-Feuerbachian humanist! At least in what he consciously espoused in diaries, letters and essays.

Tim Fisher

Have a good one!

More info later – I’m particularly impressed with Timdalf’s discussion above.

Dan Goldwasser has nothing to do with the press release. He’s designed the Howard Shore site people ask about now and then, but that’s it – he’s not associated with the LOTR project.

The press release is forthcoming, that’s as much as I know. There are no hold ups, other than the personal issues described before, and the fact that everyone’s so tied up actually creating this thing, there hasn’t yet been much time to start banging the advertising drum.

No delays, no problems. Just prioritizing.

I wouldn’t get yourselves too worked up over the ol’ press release – it’s not coming with a digital media kit including sound samples or anything like that. In fact, I think the only new tidbits you’ll glean are the actual release date (which most people have already guessed), and the cast performer (which most people have already guessed).

I know, it’ll seem more official once the mainstream press starts the buzz, but don’t worry, everything is full steam ahead.