quote:

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
And I've never really enjoyed these paper folders. It feels like every second in there damages the disc.

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It's absolutely beautiful. I've been waiting for a package of film music (or any music) like this for years.

I have a question for Doug (or anyone else that might know). It’s about a choral passage that I've heard on one of the documentaries on disc 3 of the Fellowship EE set. Just after a run through of the Flight to the Ford music, there is a passage of 'punctuated choral blasts' (about the best way I can describe it). Sounds very climatic and like its in the correct place in relation to the rest of the cue.

Doug, can you shed any light on this, in as much as what the piece is, where it is supposed to go and any other info. I read in you're notes from the official website that a choral passage was planned to go where this one seems to be, but that it was never recorded.

In general, I think this is the finest soundtrack release I have encountered. I have to say that the apparent edits do not bother me in the slightest with the possible exception of the trimming down of what I think is the ‘Descending Third accompaniment’/instrumental ‘Ringwraith Theme’ statement in the Prologue (forgive me for not being sure, I only borrowed my brothers copy and have not yet read the notes) to what it is in the film. The EE chapter selection suggests that this was recorded as a full statement of the Wraith theme as the snare drums build slowly.

And yes, the EE menu does present a longer version of the Descending Thirds Motif so I am also interested as to why this version was not included.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question and good ears.

This is indeed the unused Flight to the Ford music, with a *draft* of the choral music Shore composed for this version of the composition. Since the choral music was never *completely* recorded, it wasn't used for the boxed set. Still a possibility for a rarity someday, though.

More answers later. Almost done with holiday insanity!

-Doug

PS - By the way, any release dates currently listed for TTT and ROTK are noting more than fan rumors at this point. I just spoke with HS last Monday, and he's still deciding when best to release the next set. That said, production has begun to trickle on Two Towers.

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug Adams:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by dcopperfield:
[b]Good questions.
http://skynet.theblank.org/ubb/dc/lotr.mp3
Here is a clip of the music in question.. it is unlike any music i've heard in the score. It seams to fit as Flight to the Ford music but I'm not convinced. I think I remember it in another documentary under the scene when the ringwraiths get into the Prancing Pony Inn & stab the hobbits beds.

And yes, the EE menu does present a longer version of the Descending Thirds Motif so I am also interested as to why this version was not included.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question and good ears.

This is indeed the unused Flight to the Ford music, with a *draft* of the choral music Shore composed for this version of the composition. Since the choral music was never *completely* recorded, it wasn't used for the boxed set. Still a possibility for a rarity someday, though.

More answers later. Almost done with holiday insanity!

-Doug

PS - By the way, any release dates currently listed for TTT and ROTK are noting more than fan rumors at this point. I just spoke with HS last Monday, and he's still deciding when best to release the next set. That said, production has begun to trickle on Two Towers.

[Message edited by Doug Adams on 12-21-2005][/B]

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Tell Howard Shore with much love that we want the set now!!!!!

As I said, the Prologue edit does not bother me because a full version is presented later on the set. Also, given the fact that the prologue is made up of bits and pieces from all over the score (presumably because of how late in the game the concept was conceived) it makes me even less concerned about small edits here.

On that subject, can anyone confirm that what is heard as the Prologue was actually recorded as such? Upon listening to it without the film, it does sound as though the first half of the Prologue (until the choral Ringwraith theme at least) is possibly made up largely of takes from Lothlorien (possibly The Mirror of Galadriel?) and Parth Galen. Is it an editorial creation or did HS simply re-record sections that worked with the scene without making any significant changes. Either way, this is by no means meant as criticism.

Doug, just want to say "Thank you" again for the fabulous release that is FOTR. This has to be my most treasured soundtrack release up to now, it will only be sweeter once we have all three releases in our hands at once! Props to you as well for the annotated score from the official site, it was a good read while I was listening to the score, I think for the 10th time!

I am hoping that there will be a disc(s) of alternate and unused tracks. I have no idea as far as what's out there, just from FOTR, but I am sure that some of us readers know!

Thank you,thank you,thank you,thank you.....

Nuno Cunha

The music heard in the Prologue was indeed ALL composed and recorded specifically for the Prologue. It’s similar to be certain, but there are slight differences in the conductor’s scores… mostly rhythmic in nature, but it’s difficult to tell with such sustained, horizontal writing.

>>>Thanks for the news, Doug. I am assuming that the production for TTT & ROTK won't take as long since they already have the template for the packaging, look, feel, etc. I hope they already have the music picked out for these releases. >>>

Honestly, I don’t know what the release schedule will be, so I’m not being coy here. But I don’t know how much Fellowship’s precedent is going to expedite the process for TTT and ROTK. It’s not so much the conceptualizing that takes time on these things, it’s the pure brute effort of editing 3-plus hours of music; physically designing and choosing the specific artwork; and writing, designing and editing a mini-book each time out of the gate. We’re trying to get an early start on TTT so that the schedule doesn’t get crushed at the end, but best laid plans… (Incidentally, the “crush at the end” factor never played into the release date shifting for Fellowship, that was all due to lawyerly stuff. The “crush” only ate into personal lives and sleep hours, but hey, we made those deadlines!)

As always, I’ll do my best to update when I can. The whole thing is like a rollercoaster, and Fellowship’s release means we’ve cleared the first loop-de-loop... but we’re only about four-fifths of the way through the track! (Turn of phrase, please no one try to calculate that this must mean there are 478.53 minutes of music yet to be released. )

But as for right now, I’m going to take the holiday weekend, spend it with my family and friends, rest, relax, unwind... and dig into TTT Monday morning!

Thank you all for your kind words, thoughtful emails, and discerning but polite inquiries. There’s absolutely nothing more satisfying than working like a mad on something, then actually have people pay attention! Good film music deserves listeners like you, and believe me, those who create it appreciate your intelligence and insight.

Happy holidays, one and all.

OK Doug, it's Tuesday, are you done with TTT yet? Sorry, couldn't resist. Thanks for the update, Doug, we appreciate all the communication that you give to us, even though a lot of it is neccessarily vague.

How are the sales going for the Cmpl Sndtrk? Hopefully they are doing better than expected so there will be no snag in producing the other two completes...

I was a bit surprised that the booklet in the set is a tad more technical than the track summaries available as Annotated Score on the FotRsoundtrack site... I would have thought the musicological analysis would be on the website and the track commentary in the booklet... Not that it really matters.

All that said, I can only tell you how impressed I am (being also a long time Wagner fan -- I met RW and JRRT at about the same time 40 yrs ago) with your analysis... keep it coming. Your ability to put into words the effect of the music is unique. And I am even more impressed with the monumental score that Maestro Shore has provided. It is magnificent, especially without the dialogue and visual "distractions", all the more so because they are so well done!

Looking forward to the TTT and RotK sets (and your book!) with great anticipation.

I have a question for you. In the “Khazad-dum” track on disc 3, why is the section of music that follows Gandalf’s fall so quiet? It is a lot quieter then the original release and it seems louder in the movie as well. I can’t even hear this section of music in my car, which is where I do most of my music listening (not without turning the volume way up and the quickly back down before the next track. Even at home and listening to it on my stereo system it is still hard to hear without turning the volume way up. It seems a little louder on the DVD probably because of the 5.1 mix. Just wondering why it was recorded or mix so quiet. It is really my only gripe about the release because it happens to be my favorite section of the Fellowship score. I may just have to use Sound Forge to increase the volume a few dB in the section. This is not a complaint, just wandering the reason why the low volume mix was chosen.

link:
http://tinyurl.com/d5n3n

Don’t know if Doug will cover this in his complete book but I haven’t come across it in the liner notes or anywhere else.

I think I've 'discovered' a new motive. To my knowledge it occurs twice; once in The Sword That Was Broken (1:27 - 1:50) and again in The Mirror of Galadriel (4:50 - 5:03). It's barely a motive, consisting of powerful and passionate 2 note descending brass 'blasts' and percussion.

The two are, however, very similar as are the relative "themes" of each scene that they accompany. I'm wondering if it can be some kind of musical motive for what happens when figures of power become influenced by the Ring. In these cases, Isildur and Galadriel.

I’m not aware of it being used in either TTT or ROTK but then again, why would it? No figures of power come into direct contact with the Ring. Faramir doesn't get close enough and his is a different kind of power I guess.

So what do people think? Am I on to something or am I just looking for things that aren’t really there or even worse, pointing out something so obvious it didn’t need pointing out lol. I'd especially love to hear what Doug has to say on the matter.

Cheers all!

The packaging is very impressive - beautiful stuff.

(with apologies to Tolkien etc.)

Seriously, someday all soundtrack releases should be like this. This makes you want to sit down with the liner notes in front of you and listen to every note of the score over and over again. Plus it obviously made me want to get out the DVDs again.

Amer

I’ve just posted a batch of answers on the FSM board, which you can find here:
http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.asp?threadID=32237&forumID=1

>>>How are the sales going for the Cmpl Sndtrk? Hopefully they are doing better than expected so there will be no snag in producing the other two completes...>>>

It looks as if everything has been going better than expected indeed. In fact you can track the sales yourselves on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BNI90O/ref=pd_kar/104-4461149-3159949?n=5174

…but it looks as if the boxed set has been within the top 200 selling CDs since its release. It’s slowed a little bit over this past weekend, but will probably pick up steam again during the work week. And I know it’s been pretty much impossible to keep the set on store’s shelves, as it sells out immediately. Obviously that’s all terrific news!

>>>I was a bit surprised that the booklet in the set is a tad more technical than the track summaries available as Annotated Score on the FotRsoundtrack site... I would have thought the musicological analysis would be on the website and the track commentary in the booklet... Not that it really matters.>>>

This is exactly why we did it like this, believe it or not. The PDF is a more standard liner note type of document. Rings, in my estimation, deserves something out of the ordinary, so we included what we hoped would be a unique piece in the set, and placed the track-by-track discussion on the web,

>>>All that said, I can only tell you how impressed I am (being also a long time Wagner fan -- I met RW and JRRT at about the same time 40 yrs ago) with your analysis... keep it coming. Your ability to put into words the effect of the music is unique. And I am even more impressed with the monumental score that Maestro Shore has provided. It is magnificent, especially without the dialogue and visual "distractions", all the more so because they are so well done!

Looking forward to the TTT and RotK sets (and your book!) with great anticipation.

Many, many thanks...>>>

Thanks!

>>>Doug,

I have a question for you. In the “Khazad-dum” track on disc 3, why is the section of music that follows Gandalf’s fall so quiet? It is a lot quieter then the original release and it seems louder in the movie as well. I can’t even hear this section of music in my car, which is where I do most of my music listening (not without turning the volume way up and the quickly back down before the next track. Even at home and listening to it on my stereo system it is still hard to hear without turning the volume way up. It seems a little louder on the DVD probably because of the 5.1 mix. Just wondering why it was recorded or mix so quiet. It is really my only gripe about the release because it happens to be my favorite section of the Fellowship score. I may just have to use Sound Forge to increase the volume a few dB in the section. This is not a complaint, just wandering the reason why the low volume mix was chosen.>>>

This one is probably best answered by the FSM link above. See if this addresses your questions.

>>>nynewsdays says that the TT and ROTK sets will be released early 2007:

link: http://tinyurl.com/d5n3n

Actually it says they will be released BY early 2007, so that means we will get TTT sometime in 2006.>>>

This sounds about right. I wish I knew more right now, but I honestly don’t. The wheels are in motion and TTT is getting up and running now. That’s really all I know as far as release dates are concerned.

>>>Well, since the TTT discussion has already started, here's my opening question:
did the Voice Of Saruman scene survive long enough in the finished picture for Howard Shore to score it, or was it moved to ROTK before his work began?>>>

Is was in ROTK before Shore ever scored it. But, as you’ll notice, the music for this scene was out on the ROTK OST before the Extended DVD came out. Shore scored the scene when it was still in the Theatrical ROTK.

>>>I've got one question though: The Dwarrowdelf theme appears to be longer in the music than in the printed score. Is this a mistake, or is the theme actually that long, with the rest 'filler' melody? I just wondered...>>>

The Dwarrowdelf theme is more a line and less a self-contained melody. (Perhaps a bit of Wagner’s unending melody there?) In fact, when the theme is quoted in Balin’s tomb, you really only hear that shape from the beginning of the line. There’s no single strong cadence, so I decided to end when I heard the antecedent phrase concluding – on that F Major chord.

>>>Don’t know if Doug will cover this in his complete book but I haven’t come across it in the liner notes or anywhere else.

I think I've 'discovered' a new motive. To my knowledge it occurs twice; once in The Sword That Was Broken (1:27 - 1:50) and again in The Mirror of Galadriel (4:50 - 5:03). It's barely a motive, consisting of powerful and passionate 2 note descending brass 'blasts' and percussion.>>>

In “The Sword That Was Broken” the brass chords fluctuate between A minor and F minor – the harmonies of the Pity of Gollum theme. (This will be discussed in the ROTK notes… you’ll see!) “The Mirror of Galadriel” passage simply moves between descending inversions on an F# minor triad. There’s no direct connection, though you may see the Galadriel passage referenced again in the ROTK notes… possibly in the Mount Doom section. Both figures begin with that concert A natural in the trumpet, so while the color is quite close, these are actually different figures.

I hope that everyone has finally received his / her Internet order, and that you’re all digging in to Shore’s music. I love that people are trying to find new connections – it speaks to the complexity Shore wound into the score!

Happy New Year, all!

Thanks for all the info, I thoroughly enjoyed it! Between your reply here and at FSM, I had to take a break from my work to read it all! Your fingertips must have been smokin' after typing all of that! Glad to hear that the FOTR CR is doing so well on the sales board, esp. considering the price point. Please do us all a favor and give us any updates you can on the next two releases!

Boy, I'm so glad they were able to launch the website in January 2006! First it was going to launch in November, then December, then January. What's going on with the delays here? I was really looking forward to what this site was going to offer as far as content goes. I don't even see a contact or email link anywhere on the bottom of the main page either. Anyone know? Doug Adams?

Any new news on TTT?

There is one thing I noticed on a certain que that I was wondering if anyone else noticed. I just joined these boards, so forgive me if this has already been discussed.

On "The Caverns of Isengard", which is one of my favorite new extended ques btw, there seems to be a difference between the new release and the old concerning the vocal solo of the "nature" theme. It seems that the Isengard drum rythm bleeds a little longer into the solo on the new release than the old one and the film as well. This really isn't a complaint, but rather just an observation.

P.S. Two Towers?

Boy, I'm so glad they were able to launch the website in January 2006! First it was going to launch in November, then December, then January. What's going on with the delays here? I was really looking forward to what this site was going to offer as far as content goes. I don't even see a contact or email link anywhere on the bottom of the main page either. Anyone know? Doug Adams?>>>

Hi Chad,

I don’t have anything to do with the Howard Shore website, really. As you see on the site, it’s being created by Warm Butter Design, Dan Goldwasser’s company. It should be up and running soon, but no, I don’t know exactly when. It’ll be very comprehensive, and looks great so far.

Delays are part of any creative process. It’s a trick. You want everyone to know what’s coming out, but you can’t put a fine bead on when it’ll be done. The only all-encompassing solution is to not announce anything until about 2 days before it’s released, but that causes so many other problems, it’s hardly worth the subterfuge.

Besides, we all know the saying about a watched pot, right?

>>>Any new news on TTT?>>>

It’ll be good!

>>>Ya I second that. I've been checking Howardshore.com everday for like 3 months now.
Oh and I should just say that I love the new release,...great job with the mini book Doug.

There is one thing I noticed on a certain que that I was wondering if anyone else noticed. I just joined these boards, so forgive me if this has already been discussed.

On "The Caverns of Isengard", which is one of my favorite new extended ques btw, there seems to be a difference between the new release and the old concerning the vocal solo of the "nature" theme. It seems that the Isengard drum rythm bleeds a little longer into the solo on the new release than the old one and the film as well. This really isn't a complaint, but rather just an observation.>>>

Just a different mix, that’s all. Everything was created from square one for this release, so the fade on the percussion section ended up a bit stretched. Just exploring possibilities.

>>>P.S. Two Towers?>>>

It’ll be good!

By the way, if anyone is going to the Cleveland performance on the LOTR Symphony this weekend, I’ll be joining Mr. Shore in the Q&A after Sunday (2/12) afternoon’s performance. Please come and say hi!

All the great things have been highlighted multiple times, so allow me to offer a little constructive criticism. I'm all for including the actor's voices where they match - I'd always been hoping to have McKellen on the set, and it's wonderful, just like the Boyd/Monaghan stuff. I don't mind the Mortensen bit either, although it really doesn't do much musically. But I simply don't understand why Holm's singing was included - as others have said, it doesn't match the music, and also, he doesn't even sing well (possibly on purpose). For me, that's the only really annoying thing about an otherwise terrific release. (As a minor complaint, my pause button doesn't work on the DVD-V part, because it's disabled in DVD menus)

And I can't wait for TTT.

first of all, there is something about the score excerpts in the FOTR booklet that I don't understand. In those excerpts, the individual sections are always written at the left side of each bar (violin, violoncello and so on), but in some instances (like the Balrog excerpt), the excerpt has the tuba playing a divisi. And as far as I know, there's no way a tuba can play two notes at once. And, also as far as I know, Howard Shore used only one bass tuba in all of his LotR scores (quote from FSM magazine: "I used four trumpets, five french horns, two tenor trombones, one bass trombone and one bass tuba. That was my brass setup for all the films.")

I think it appears in the tower of Cirith Ungol (before Sam kills the orcs and ascends the tower to reach Frodo), but it's quite heavily disguised.

Another more obvious statement of 'Evil Times' is in 'The Two Towers' under the main title in the theatrical cut.

He was speaking generally here – I’m sure he wouldn’t have listed rhaita as part of his general “woodwind setup,” though it certainly plays its role. Also, he was speaking of the LSO, if I recall correctly. Remember that the Moria music, including the Balrog passages, were played by the NZSO.

So long answer short, yes there are two tubas here. Shore expanded his low brass forces for the Moria music.

>>>My second question is about the "Evil Times" motif. I have real trouble distinguishing "The Evil Of The One Ring"/"Sauron's Theme" and "Evil Times". Of course I can identify the obvious statements, like the introduction shot of Barad- Dur and "The Sword That Was Broken"; but ever since I've read your comments on "Evil Times" I tried to pay more attention to this theme, and I can never decide whether the thematic hint I hear is at Sauron or Evil Times. Like the sequence in Cirith Ungol. You wrote that a pulsing statement of the theme drives Sam into the tower, do you mean the scene in which the orcs kidnap Frodo or the scene with Sam passing the silent watchers?>>>

Specifically, I’m referring to Sam ascending the staircase in Cirith Ungol. But you’ve made a wonderful observation here, one that I hope other's will note. The Evil of the Ring motive is very, very much like the Evil of the Ring motive, simply less chromatic. In fact, you’ll also notice that with a few extra turns and pitch repetitions you can neatly construct the History of the Ring from Evil Times. Observations such as this are crucial to understanding Shore’s LOTR work, especially as it progresses towards ROTK. Where does one theme begin and the next end? As you progress, you’ll find all sort of material in common. For example, there are a number of times in ROTK where the History and Evil themes intersect, which is obviously drawing the Ring’s tale to a head. Thematic division gets blurry in LOTR, and quite purposefully so!

Again, great, great observation here!

>>>This is my first post, but I am a long-time viewer...particularly of this thread. My question is this:
I was wondering why the booklet does not contain track numbers and exact timings for the "The World of Men" themes in the Complete Recordings. All of the other cues are given such treatment. Is this because we are not supposed to come back to these "early" versions as adequate renditions for these themes which are so expanded in Return of the King?>>>

They are not indexed in FOTR because they’re not really used as themes per se in this score. It is only through their repetition in TTT and ROTK that these lines become themes – if you only listened to FOTR, you wouldn’t note these as themes so much as momentary passages with some lovely harmonies. It is because of their use in TTT and ROTK that these figures become themes – and incredibly significant themes at that – so I want to wait until those notes to introduce the discussion. So, you’ll get those index listings eventually, you’ve just got to wait.