I haven't heard all of "Munich" yet so I can't really say which of the four my favorite is but there isn't one that I dislike (and I've only seen two of them in their proper context).

That being said, what I have heard of it is VERY good. Williams at his darkest best.

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Originally posted by jb1234:
This is the year that proves just how in the game Williams still is. Four different scores, completely different from each other and all brilliant in their own ways.

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I don't know about you, but it kind of reminds me of 1997 when Williams composed four other good ones: Amistad, Seven Years in Tibet, Jurassic Park 2 & Rosewood. And again, two in the same year for Spielberg.

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Originally posted by jb1234:
[b] <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>I don't know about you, but it kind of reminds me of 1997 when Williams composed four other good ones: Amistad, Seven Years in Tibet, Jurassic Park 2 & Rosewood. And again, two in the same year for Spielberg.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interestingly, out of those four, I've only heard Jurassic Park 2. Are the others good? [/B]

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In addition to the four new scores, 1997 is also the year we got all three "complete" Star Wars OT scores. Just thought I'd mention it.

Avner's theme, IMO, is probably the most poignant piece he's written in a very long time (the theme itself, not just the solo guitar track). The different ways it's played and emotion of the writing reminds me of his theme for "Angela's Ashes".

I actually prefer the theme from "Remembering Munich" more than Avner's theme. There's something about the latter that sounds too awfully familiar to me but I can't place my finger on it.

The quieter and brooding tracks are probably more effective in the film than on CD, but they still have their interest (particularly the electronic looping which is something Williams rarely gets into).

I have to give him credit. This score just reeks of despair. It's very hard to listen to all the way through. Thinking about it, out of the four scores, only "Geisha" provides some lightness (and even so, not as much as you might think). Williams has definitely been unleashing his dark side this year.

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Originally posted by jb1234:

I actually prefer the theme from "Remembering Munich" more than Avner's theme. There's something about the latter that sounds too awfully familiar to me but I can't place my finger on it.

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Angela's Ashes?

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
Munich is so damn good that it deserves two straight listenings in a row! (I think the last one for me was Zimmer's King Arthur . . . weird)

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You're nuts!

NP: Get Rich Or Die Tryin' - 50 Cent *****/*****

Clayton

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
Now that Demetris' Munich has now become a new forum engine discussion, I've decided to bring my original thread up from the depths of Atlantis. Let's get going. Oscar worthy? We know the Maestro won a Globe for Memoirs but this score takes all of his previous scores this year and renders them silly because this thing is so damn serious. Let's have it!

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I don't see that. How does Munich make Revenge Of The Sith, War Of The Worlds, and Memoirs Of A Geisha have "silly" scores? All of those scores are serious; there's no micky-mousing in Star Wars, and War Of The Worlds has pretty dark and very interesting music, and Memoirs Of A Geisha has it's colourful moments yet isn't "silly," either, but Munich does not stamp out these scores.

Although Munich is a good score, it isn't his best—that tortured female voice? Gimme a break. It doesn't work on album and it's supposed to tell us what? That even John Williams can be influenced by Hans Zimmer (there's a similar problem with this in Revenge Of The Sith, but it works a little better visually)? It's about as weak a tool as the percussion-only bits from Attack Of The Clones and Minority Report (obviously fall-out from Tan Dun's Courching Tiger, Hidden Dragon). Those voice cues in Munich aren't memorable at all on film and just plain weak on CD. The main strengths, IMO, come from the end credits cue, "Avner's Theme," "Bonding," and the "Encounter In London" synth-work. Those are all very strong compositions and work great with the picture; and make it a damned good score. But to write his three other stellar scores this past year are "silly" compared to Munich is total B.S.

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And come on, how good can Munich be (as a film) when the author of the book it's based on (Vengeance) hated the film and is supposed to bow out as if he didn't exist, because his views conflict with that of Munich's producers and director? Petty stuff.

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And that doesn't flow with your previous statements and my knowledge that you had seen the film. Besides, this case happens with a tremendous amount of novel-to-film adaptations.

Now Sean, let's get cracking on some Battle of Midway action before we kill each other.

I'm not sure I'd call my reaction disappointment, but rather: "Meh." I do like the Prayer for Peace, though, as some of the orchestration reminds me of the Epilogue from The Fury, the elegaic sound, the climbing strings, etc.

(Also, a lot of it reminds of a Morricone album at times, many variations on one theme, surrounded by purely brooding suspense tracks. I sort of dug that, actually.)

Now Sean, let's get cracking on some Battle of Midway action before we kill each other. <HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

I picked up the latest issue of MaClane's here in Canada and there's a big article on that very point, of George Jonas being at odds with the filmmakers on Munich; he's the Canadian journalist who wrote "Vengeance," which Munich is based upon. I just find it really sleazy that the film's producers and director are being so antagonistic towards him over their re-version of his book—so much so that they don't want him to attend the major film awards shows this season because he's at odds with them, even though he's been invited to all these shows, they don't want him to attend. So, in that respect, my opininon of the film has changed greatly. Although I think it has a great visual style, it's a better movie about assassins than it is about politics, which isn't a strong suit of Spielberg. I want some Indiana Jones 4, not more of this contemplative September 11 junk film politics he's high on—I bet he thinks he's being pretty profound and "liberal."

I see what you mean by the scores, now, it makes more sense. There's still nothing on Munich that can even compare to pieces like "Anakin vs. Obi-Wan" or "Anakin's Betrayal" or "Battle Of The Heroes." Even "Reaching The Country" from War Of The Worlds is far more emotional and engaging than Munich ever is.

And now gladly off to Midway ... (another cool Williams score!)

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Although Munich is a good score, it isn't his best—that tortured female voice? Gimme a break. It doesn't work on album and it's supposed to tell us what? That even John Williams can be influenced by Hans Zimmer (there's a similar problem with this in Revenge Of The Sith, but it works a little better visually)? It's about as weak a tool as the percussion-only bits from Attack Of The Clones and Minority Report (obviously fall-out from Tan Dun's Courching Tiger, Hidden Dragon).

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Well, it tells us that unlike Hans Zimmer, Williams knows why to use a female solo, where to use it and how to use it to great effect. Yes, indeed, for Williams, a wailing voice is still something to use with great care, and then only when it's appropriate, whereas Zimmer considers it as merely another musical tool.
Same thing with the drums.

To answer your question on the music Demetris: the score is very fine in context. It seems some have found the use of 'Remembering Munich' at a personal climactic scene a bit much, but for me that scene was so cathartic, obviously it helped that I'm now very familiar with the cue and the themes it showcases. I was breathless at the end of that essential scene.

Avner's Theme is used well throughout - though not as much as I expected. 'Bonding' appears early and takes the weight off the dialogue for a while - very nice scene in context. An hour or so later, Avner's theme starts to return - I think it might have done well to play with variations of it a little, but that would probably produce a less sparely scored film. Only on one occasion is the music a little strong for scene, and it's only a slight misjudgement, but one use of Avner's theme where a horn enters seems a tad big. (Then again, the film is ramping up in the expressiveness of the music at this point - heading towards the 'Remembering Munich' climax - so it's easy to see why it was felt necessary.)

An interesting aspect of this score in context is the lack of concession to standards of the genre - the hitman genre. The location changes which might be referenced in other scores - e.g. The Jackal (Burwell) or Bourne Supremacy (Powell) - are not characterised. In context, many moments come across like episodes in another hitman film starring Daniel Craig in a key role - Road to Perdition - though this is the better film. The family of the informant Louis, which a younger John Williams might have bestowed a slithering accordion, cymbalom and piano theme on, is unscored altogether.

What is effective in context is the darker material. The electronic percussive loop nicely communicates the 'wheels in motion' once the crew is committed to a killing. The Black September theme is great counterpoint to the frantic images of the Munich hostage crisis. (And I only noticed here that the bridging string passage in 'Remembering Munich' is a more romantic take on the Black September theme.) Atonal cymbalom writing after one of the deaths was a nice touch. 'Letter Bombing' is a combination of two cues in the film.

Now - some album cues are not featured. I didn't hear 'Avner and Daphne', but it might have been in the early scenes of the film. 'Avner's Theme' - the guitar variation - doesn't appear directly, although there is the guitar-and-cello version 'Bonding', which probably inspired the album-only cue. 'A Prayer for Peace', the full string version of Avner's Theme, is similarly absent, though may appear in the end credits. The End Credits is a combination of album end credits cue, seguing from the piano of Avner's Theme to the cello-version of the Munich theme in 'Thoughts of Home'. It's a good way to move through the main themes of the film.

Memoirs may be the more expressive score, but this one is solely in the service of the film. Great film. Great music. Great chance not many people will appreciate either.

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MS Word Auto-Summary of Beloved-Twin's Rant:
I would contend that it is the hardest Spielberg film to watch, and the one with the least hope about the world we live in.

An interesting aspect of this score in context is the lack of concession to standards of the genre - the hitman genre.

What is effective in context is the darker material. The electronic percussive loop nicely communicates the 'wheels in motion' once the crew is committed to a killing. The Black September theme is great counterpoint to the frantic images of the Munich hostage crisis. The End Credits is a combination of album end credits cue, seguing from the piano of Avner's Theme to the cello-version of the Munich theme in 'Thoughts of Home'. It's a good way to move through the main themes of the film.
Memoirs may be the more expressive score, but this one is solely in the service of the film.

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