Having heard most of the ORIGINAL releases of these Silva re-recordings (that appear on this 2002 Silva America compilation) I just couldn't keep a straight face - and still can't - when hearing the silly ADDITIONAL (kettledrum?timpani?) on James Bernard's HORROR OF DRACULA Main Theme. After my first burst of laughter I really tried to give this "remix" a chance, but after having listened to it now for the umpteenth time I hear only an out-of-tune beating of a drum - which disturbs a lot.

However, I do remember that some years ago on this very message board we had a conversation where someone even noted that the original Silva re-recording (1989 by the Philharmonia Orchestra & Neil Richardson) of the DRACULA theme did resemble more of the DRACULA -PRINCE OF DARKNESS Main Title (1966) than the original powerfully percussive DRACULA Main Title (1958). I wonder if Silva America saw these comments and decided to make the original Philharmonia re-recording sound more like the James Bernard original - and added the out-of-tune drum-beat to this specific compilation?

Anyway, looking through the credits of this compilation I also started to wonder how many re-compilings have some of these original re-recordings gone through? There are at least two different James Bernard DRACULA re-releases after the initial one (1989) --- and with the other albums I don't even start guessing which one was first, the egg or the chicken?

NEVERTHELESS,
these Silva's rerecordings are quite excellent in my opinion. I just wish I knew the idiot who put the silly additional percussion on the DRACULA Main Theme - because the drum just doesn't suite there!

Ken, yes, the Main Titles from (HORROR OF) DRACULA have never been done well. As you mention, the earlier effort by Neil Richardson and the Philharmonia Orchestra completely omitted the steady drumbeat (and thus came off resembling DRACULA PRINCE OF DARKNESS more than than anything). On the newer CD set, we've still got Richardson at the helm of the Philharmonia (but recorded way back in 1989, so not THAT much later than his first attempt) - and he still gets it completely wrong. Actually, the heavy tympani beat and urgent snare or kettle drum (?) rat-tat-tatting are present in James Bernard's original score, but you're right, they're hilariously off in this. Maybe hilarious is the wrong word - I was crushingly disappointed at first. Where is the steady ominous beat? In this version it slows down and speeds up on a whim, and the rat-tat-tatting (so powerful in the film) sounds like a child trying out his new drum kit. Awful. It's such a pity the original score seems to be lost.

So will you please get your nose out of those books with big words in them and rent the movie in question. And then tell us it's rubbish.

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
I think Ken might be right when he implies that Silva just went back and added the drums to the original re-recording from 1989.

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Ofcourse I'm right. I've never been righter than this.

I haven't yet made the comparison by playing the two "versions" at the same time (-I usually do that to make absolutely sure when I'm uncertain about similarities-) BUT I know this original Philharmonia album by heart and the recordings so well, that I highly doubt that the newest one would be a re-RE-recording.

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
Ken, yes, the Main Titles from (HORROR OF) DRACULA have never been done well. As you mention, the earlier effort by Neil Richardson and the Philharmonia Orchestra completely omitted the steady drumbeat (and thus came off resembling DRACULA PRINCE OF DARKNESS more than than anything).

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We have to keep in mind that this original Philharmonia re-recording WAS authorized by James Bernard himself. Knowing his HAMMER history (only strings & percussion on THE QUATERMASS XPERIMENT; strings, woodwind, brass & percussion on THE CURSE OF FRANKENSTEIN; and the "Hammer orchestra" growing larger each time) it can be assumed that the Philharmonia recording of the Dracula theme WAS James Bernard's fullfilled dream with its more symphonic treatment (compared to the original work).

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
Where is the steady ominous beat? In this version it slows down and speeds up on a whim, and the rat-tat-tatting (so powerful in the film) sounds like a child trying out his new drum kit. Awful.

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Exactly.
(Thanks for putting it in words better than I ever could).

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
BUT - it IS a good CD set in general, isn't it? By the way Ken (and anyone else), what do you think of KISS OF THE VAMPIRE?

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The compilation is a VERY GOOD ONE apart from the "dubbed" Dracula theme. I especially wanted this compilation because of the more serene selections such as THE SCARS OF DRACULA "Love Theme", FRANKENSTEIN CREATED WOMAN, SHE "Suite", and the gorgeous second part of Bernard's "THE VAMPIRE HUNTER" (which is not Hammer music at all, but who cares when the music is as great as that?)

Since I had never heard KISS OF THE VAMPIRE before, it was a small disappointment - but this WESTMINSTER PHILHARMONIC re-recording WAS a quite good one. On the GDI "HAMMER VAMPIRE FILM MUSIC COLLECTION" I enjoyed the two waltzes immensely, but you were right about the original score presentation being a rather modest one on this album. (By the way, have you, Graham, seen the movie? More than anything I'd like to know how Bernard handled the "infamous" [?] bat climax).

KEN

"Finland,Finland, Finland
The country where I'd quite like to be
Pony-trekking or camping
Or just watching TV"

Here in Spain we're also enjoying the Midsummer festivities, jumping over bonfires and eating sardines. You've got to see it in its historical perspective, but for most people it's just an excuse to get wasted on alcohol. I don't exclude myself, though I do feel a certain amount of shame.

But back to things filmicallymusical - so, we agree, Silva's re-recording (the second attempt) is not a re-RE-recording, but rather an overdub (drums added). Perhaps.

I'm less sure about James Bernard "authorizing" these re-recordings. Well, I'm sure he did to a certain extent, but he seemed such a nice humble gentleman that he probably let pass the horrendous take on his Main Titles for (HORROR OF) DRACULA thinking "Bah, what does it matter? Some nice people are paying attention to me, and the rest of the stuff on the disc is quite well done." Something doesn't ring true about his increasing development career-wise to a more orchestral sound culminating in his acceptance of the re-recording of the Main Titles in question - it's not as if the bare, brutal concept of the original was improved on, quite the reverse.

As regards THE VAMPIRE HUNTER music for the documentary about bats - it's great, agreed. What is particularly striking about this is that in the last few minutes it departs almost entirely from the typical James Bernard sound and ends up sumptiously similar to John Barry. Now, as demonstrated in SHE, THE SCARS OF DRACULA and FRANKENSTEIN CREATED WOMAN, James Bernard was quite adept at being romantic, but he was still always the romantic antithesis of John Barry. Except here.

KISS OF THE VAMPIRE - why were you vaguely disappointed in this, Ken? I love that piece. Anyway, I haven't seen the film in a while, but according to Randall D Larson in his book "Music From The House Of Hammer", James Bernard chose not to score the batty climax in order to not compete with the sound of rubbery wings.

Unless I am misunderstanding your original question...

Silva is not reliable with some of the credits on their CDs. Sometimes they list the wrong composer for a piece of music. Sometimes they give a title for a piece that is not correct. Sometimes they even mess up who the conductor is or even if the Crouch End chorus is on a specific track.

These are production problems between the recording process and the production of the accompanying CD booklets. (I even had one where the track listing differed from the booklet and the back of the CD box.)

So, my "guess" is that this may be what the actual problem was with the recording you were asking about.

One way to check is to see if they listed the arrangers of a track, or where the parts came from. Then compare that to see if they were using Bernard's material or something else.

Final nail in the coffin (!) of this topic perhaps - if the drumbeat was indeed added subsequently to the '89 re-recording, then there's no way it could have even attempted to ape the steady ominous beat of the original soundtrack from 1958, because the timing was so off in the drumless re-record anyway that an added steady beat wouldn't have fit either. Which is maybe what actually happened.

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
"Finland,Finland, Finland
The country where I'd quite like to be
Pony-trekking or camping
Or just watching TV"

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Graham, have you been watching Conan O'Brien or somethin'?

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
You've got to see it in its historical perspective, but for most people it's just an excuse to get wasted on alcohol.

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Here, too.

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
I'm less sure about James Bernard "authorizing" these re-recordings. Well, I'm sure he did to a certain extent, but he seemed such a nice humble gentleman that he probably let pass the horrendous take on his Main Titles for (HORROR OF) DRACULA thinking "Bah, what does it matter? Some nice people are paying attention to me, and the rest of the stuff on the disc is quite well done."

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I'm sure that Mr. Bernard was a nice humble gentleman - and to confirm that (among other things) I have gathered here some evidence that it has been Silva Screen Records (producers da Silva, Fitzpatrick & Stoner) who added the drums (at some point during the past 13 years) to the original Philharmonia recording.

EVIDENCE NO. 1
According to the liner notes of the original 1989 Silva album of MUSIC FROM THE HAMMER FILMS, filmcd066) the original "five part [Dracula] suite was prepared for the recording by the composer [James Bernard]". (The CD booklet contains also a photograph of engineer Ross-Trevor, producer Tomlinson and composer Bernard working at the editing table; music supervisor Philip Martell was also photographed). If Silva's credits on "THE HORROR OF DRACULA" [filmcd708, a re-release of a 1974 LP recording] are to be believed, Bernard made also the original symphonic arrangements of the background music and Philip Martell only conducted the recordings. These 1974 arrangements bear a clear resemblance to the 1989 Philharmonia recordings. CONCLUSION: James Bernard was heavily involved making the original 1989 Philharmonia recording (without the additional timpani) - and thus "authorized" it.

EVIDENCE NO. 2
The "Dracula Main Theme" on the Silva America compilation (HAMMER - THE STUDIO THAT DRIPPED BLOOD! ssd1137) IS the same recording by Richardson & Philharmonia apart from the additional timpani. I just listened the two at the SAME time - and both versions have EXACTLY the same timings, same "sound", same everything, except for the additional timpani. The timpani sound doesn't even match up with the original recording's original percussion. CONCLUSION: The timpani has been added sometime later.

EVIDENCE NO. 3
Sadly, James Bernard passed away 9th July 2001 while this Silva America compilation bears a "P" mark (=produced in) of the year 2002. (According to MM.com the compilation was released on April 9th 2002). CONCLUSION: James Bernard DID NOT authorize this additional-timpani on his original Philharmonia orchestration. (However, since I don't have the re-re-release of the Silva Screen DRACULA compilation [filmcd714] which was produced sometime in late 90's, I cannot be 100% sure that the specific compilation doesn't include already the additional-timpani-version of the "Dracula Main Theme").

I rest my case.

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
Something doesn't ring true about his increasing development career-wise to a more orchestral sound culminating in his acceptance of the re-recording of the Main Titles in question - it's not as if the bare, brutal concept of the original was improved on, quite the reverse.

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While I do agree with you that the music world needs an authentic soundtrack (re)recording of Bernard's original and complete DRACULA, I have to disagree with your remark quoted above. I love the original "brutal & bare" Hammer scores, but I also loved to hear all these full-blown symphonic versions on the old classics. (Granted, I'm a fool for full-blown symphonic music -- the bigger the orchestra, the better the music, in my humble opinion). Furthermore, I simply fell in love with James Bernard's NOSFERATU (recorded by the City of Prague Philharmonic & Nic Raine, filmcd192) because it had the familiar "Hammer-Dracula-sound" reworked into magnificent symphonic extents.

And what comes to James Bernard's "increasing development career-wise to a more orchestral sound", you just have to compare his original Dracula (1958) to his last MOVIE Dracula (THE LEGEND OF THE 7 GOLDEN VAMPIRES, 1974) and to his very last Hammer Dracula (the 1974 LP recording narrated by Christopher Lee) and to his last work associated with Dracula overall (the NOSFERATU score of 1997). When comparing all these works, it is clear how Bernard's sound grows more and more colorful in orchestration - in other words, more symphonic - each time. (Personally I'd like to add Bernard's DRACULA HAS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE (1968) to this list, because in it Bernard has a distinctive enhanced symphonic sound (more colourful and lush in romantic terms) when compared to his previous score DRACULA - PRINCE OF DARKNESS (1966).

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
What is particularly striking about [THE VAMPIRE HUNTER] is that in the last few minutes it departs almost entirely from the typical James Bernard sound and ends up sumptiously similar to John Barry.

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You know why? Because it is partially orchestrated by Nic Raine who did orchestrations also for John Barry.

Seriously speaking, I don't hear much of the resemblance to Barry on the VAMPIRE HUNTER finale. In my opinion the music sounds more soaringly "childlike" than anything John Barry ever wrote. The VAMPIRE HUNTER finale is the beautiful "swan song" for the real James Bernard, in my humble opinion.

As for resemblances, I do find James Bernard's main theme for SHE (1965) a quite interesting mixture of Spellboundish Miklos Rozsa, a simplified "violins-only" love theme a'la Vertigoish-Kaneish Herrmann, and a wonderfully high-class precursor of the lighter side of Pino Donaggio. Maybe too many similarities, but I do LOVE James Bernard's SHE -especially as conducted by Philip Martell on the 1974 LP "HAMMER PRESENTS DRACULA".

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
KISS OF THE VAMPIRE - why were you vaguely disappointed in this, Ken? I love that piece.

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Well, let's just say I've never been a fan of the "artistic" way of pounding the piano. I prefer such piano as John Williams' "Over the Moon" from E.T. --- (Simply a matter of taste). However, I do believe that within the movie this Bernard piano score may be quite an effective one.

*****

THE DEVIL RIDES OUT: MUSIC FOR HAMMER HORROR, ADVENTURE AND ROMANCE (filmcd174)

Can anyone confirm is the above-mentioned album a compilation of the performances of the Westminster Philharmonic Orchestra (SHE, QUATERMASS II, KISS OF THE VAMPIRE) and the City of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra (THE SCARS OF DRACULA, FRANKENSTEIN CREATED WOMAN, THE DEVIL RIDES OUT plus the dinosaur epics)?

If it is, then we can assume that only THE VAMPIRE HUNTER was recorded "especially" for the "HAMMER - THE STUDIO THAT DRIPPED BLOOD!" compilation.

Then the mysteries would be solved.

KEN

Yes, it seems that James Bernard prepared and authorized the tympani-free "Dracula Suite" after all. I'm still surprised he did - the fuller orchestral sound may or may not have mirrored his own development as a composer, but that's not the problem here. The problem is that the timing's all wrong. Both with and without the percussion it's a mess, and just TOO far removed from the original. The whole take on (HORROR OF) DRACULA is even more surprising when compared to the bits of DRACULA HAS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE and TASTE THE BLOOD OF DRACULA on the same disc, which are very succesful in my opinion. True, these films already had a more beefed-up sound so perhaps James Bernard didn't feel the need to beef them up any further, but he seemingly didn't feel the need to change the rhythms or notes either, thankfully.

One further hair-splitting point - was the music which appeared behind the dialogue on the 1974 Christopher Lee-narrated "Hammer Presents Dracula" really composed for that? I thought it had been culled from earlier scores such as SCARS OF DRACULA and tracked in.

And Ken, yes, the compilation of James Bernard scores which you mention includes re-recordings by both the Prague and the Westminster orchestras, the same takes which are on "Hammer: The Studio That Dripped Blood".

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
the fuller orchestral sound may or may not have mirrored [Bernard's] own development as a composer, but that's not the problem here. The problem is that the timing's all wrong. Both with and without the percussion it's a mess, and just TOO far removed from the original.

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Timing's all wrong WITHOUT the percussion??!!!?

I may be musically-theoretically a complete moron, but I can't hear anything wrong in the original Philharmonia recording of the Dracula Theme. (With the additional percussion, on the other hand, I CAN HEAR IT).

Although with Graham we are both complete Hammer-batties, we seem to have a different approach and agenda what comes to the original Philharmonia recording. The specific 1989 Silva album was one of my very first CDs and I can still remember how ecstatic I was when hearing this fullblown symphonic interpretation on the great theme. The only thing that made me disappointed was that my favorite piece of music from Bernard's DRACULA - the exciting chase music from the movie's climax - wasn't included in this newly-arranged DRACULA suite. That's why I have been ecstatic whenever I bump into similar compositions from James Bernard - for example, the "Pursuit of Knock" in his NOSFERATU score is one of my absolute faves because it reflects a bit of the original chase music in DRACULA.

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
The whole take on (HORROR OF) DRACULA is even more surprising when compared to the bits of DRACULA HAS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE and TASTE THE BLOOD OF DRACULA on the same disc, which are very succesful in my opinion. True, these films already had a more beefed-up sound so perhaps James Bernard didn't feel the need to beef them up any further, but he seemingly didn't feel the need to change the rhythms or notes either, thankfully.

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It just popped into my mind: Perhaps James Bernard himself didn't file away the scores he wrote in the early days? (It has certainly happened to yours truly and I've always been so goddamn mad to myself that I didn't understand to file away most of my early comics & artwork whatever). This could actually explain why the Philharmonia DRACULA suite sounds so different - maybe Bernard had to put it literally AGAIN on paper and then, as everyone else, thought that he might improve it "a little". The other scores (GRAVE and TASTE) date to the end of 60's when Hammer was in its heights and therefore their music department or the publishers must have properly filed away all sheets of music.

And I still believe that Mr. Bernard did evolve _by his own choice_ in his musical sound throughout the years. Let's remember the John Williams case where a composer adopted a completely new style and has even done some curious interpretations on his own classic movie themes. In Mr. Bernard's case, however, I dare to say that his more orchestral sound was development into the right direction.

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
One further hair-splitting point - was the music which appeared behind the dialogue on the 1974 Christopher Lee-narrated "Hammer Presents Dracula" really composed for that? I thought it had been culled from earlier scores such as SCARS OF DRACULA and tracked in.

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Not especially COMPOSED for but it - at least - SOUNDS like newly-arranged material for a bigger orchestra conducted by Philip Martell. The 1994 BGO Records CD release (of the original 1974 "Hammer Presents Dracula") credits Martell as the music arranger.

I just made a startling discovery that I hadn't noticed before: The 1992 re-release of the above-mentioned by Silva Screen ("THE HORROR OF DRACULA") contains additional bits of music from the Philharmonia DRACULA recordings. The original "Hammer Presents Dracula" begins with a short variation of the Dracula theme and ends with a similar one, but both have been omitted from the Silva re-release. The Silva re-release has some small pieces of additional music (from the Philharmonia recordings) especially in the parts "The Kiss of Living Death" and "The Final Horror". The "Epilogue" ends with an almost complete "Confrontation and Climax" from DRACULA - PRINCE OF DARKNESS as performed by the Philharmonia. I also noticed that the "Lord of the Vampiric Hords" prologue's Dracula "fanfare" seems quite similar to the fanfare in "Dracula's Metamorphosis" from THE LEGEND OF 7 GOLDEN VAMPIRES.

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
Hail to all those who batter nails into planks of wood with their heads.

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Still celebrating the Midsummer, Graham?

KEN

We're not really on a "re-recording vs original" dispute here, but in this particular case the only thing I can do is point you to the original Main Titles on GDI's first theme compilation release and let you get back to me on how the two re-recordings stand in comparison.

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
We're not really on a "re-recording vs original" dispute here, but in this particular case the only thing I can do is point you to the original Main Titles on GDI's first theme compilation release and let you get back to me on how the two re-recordings stand in comparison.

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The original and the Philharmonia version SHOULD NOT be compared. As I already said in my previous message, the Philharmonia version is an INTERPRETATION and NOT the original. It should be also pointed out that this Philharmonia interpretation and arrangement has been (quite possibly) created to represent all six James Bernard DRACULA scores and not just the original "HORROR OF DRACULA" Main Title. That's my point.

And as for the original Main Title on GDI's theme compilation, I prefer my very own "JAMES BERNARD DRACULA" compilation. Yes, with sound effects, but at least I can listen to the climax chase (with slighly less sound effects when taken from HOUND OF THE BASKERVILLES) whenever I'm in the mood.

KEN

And we can most certainly agree on the fact that Hammer music rules and (HORROR OF) DRACULA is bloody brilliant!

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THE DEVIL RIDES OUT: MUSIC FOR HAMMER HORROR, ADVENTURE AND ROMANCE (filmcd174)

Can anyone confirm is the above-mentioned album a compilation of the performances of the Westminster Philharmonic Orchestra (SHE, QUATERMASS II, KISS OF THE VAMPIRE) and the City of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra (THE SCARS OF DRACULA, FRANKENSTEIN CREATED WOMAN, THE DEVIL RIDES OUT plus the dinosaur epics)?

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As far as The Devil Rides Out, I have the US release. It contians a coupl tracks not on the 2002 release.

It has a 13:44 Quatermass suite that includes music from The Quatermass Experiment and X- The Unknown, which accounts for half the suite, the other half from Quatermass II which is on the 2002 double CD release.

The Devil Rides Out also has a longer SHE suite, its 5 tracks around 17 or 18 minutes, whereas the 2002 release is 4 tracks around 16 minutes.

I'm not sure the differences but the track listing is as follows:

She Suite (Devil Rides Out, SSD 1059, 1996)
2. Ayesa - She Who Must Be Obeyed 4:17
3. Desert Quest and Bedouin Attack 4:02
4. In The Kingdom of She - Processional 2:44
5. In The Kingdom of She - The Cruelty of She 1:24
6.The Eternal Flame and The Destruction of She 4:59

She Suite (Essential Hammer, SSD 1137, 2002)
5. Ayesha - She who Must be Obeyed 3:11
6. Bedouin Attack and Desert Quest 2:42
7. In the Kingdom of She - Processional / The Cruelty of She 3:19
8. The Eternal Flame and the Desturction of She 4:54

So with the exception of the final She track in each suite, their are timing differences, and music was edited somewhere.

[Message edited by tjguitar on 08-26-2006]

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Originally posted by Thor:
So...I take it that Graham and Ken are fans of Hammer horror films?

Incidentally, my head started to spin after the 10th post or so, so I just had to quit....the detailed knowledge that you guys possess! Amazing.

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Not just Graham and Ken, there's a few of us Hammerheads around.

.....Now where's MY plank of wood with a nail in it?

It appears I never thanked Graham here publically. (Privately I think I did).

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
I think at least we can agree on why the added percussion on re-recording No.2 doesn't work. Can we?

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Yes, absolutely.

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
And we can most certainly agree on the fact that Hammer music rules and (HORROR OF) DRACULA is bloody brilliant!

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Bloody brilliant, absolutely!

I hope you Graham are alive and well!

KEN

Good to know you're still around.

The real reason I revisited this place is that I've been in contact with the FishChip man himself regarding on-line shopping, and it looks like the service here is da best. It only took me ten years to discover that!

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Originally posted by Graham Watt:
I've been in contact with the FishChip man himself regarding on-line shopping, and it looks like the service here is da best.

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Oh, I could've told you that already several years ago. Peter is really one of the absolute best!

(It's just a pity that in recent years I've spend more money on getting rare movies than movie music - otherwise I would've supported moviemusic.com much more).