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Originally posted by nuts_score:
"Surrender" is a wonderful song, Sean; and it should have been the choice for the title song. But "The World is Not Enough" might be more familiar to those who are unfortunate enough not to own TND on album (I'm cool enough to own both the initial release and the expanded ). Even though it's my favorite Brosnan-Bond score; I'm under some impression that more people have heard TWiNE and DAD. Call me crazy, I know; but those who say Arnold isn't qualified for Bond obviously haven't put enough effort into his score for TND.

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I disagree. I think most people who are into Bond know the TND more than the others... TWiNE and DAD aren't all that strong, so I would think that most people were elated by the TND score (after Eric Serra's wrechted GoldenEye), and were then progressively let down by David Arnold as he continued (I'm sure that rabid maniac Brendan Cooper disagrees to no end). I'm interested to see what he'll come with for CR, if indeed he's using some kind of new fangled sound; we'll see!

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Originally posted by sean:
I disagree. I think most people who are into Bond know the TND more than the others... TWiNE and DAD aren't all that strong, so I would think that most people were elated by the TND score (after Eric Serra's wrechted GoldenEye), and were then progressively let down by David Arnold as he continued (I'm sure that rabid maniac Brendan Cooper disagrees to no end). I'm interested to see what he'll come with for CR, if indeed he's using some kind of new fangled sound; we'll see!

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That's what I mean, Seanjimbo; how anyone could like those wretched Pierce Brosan as Bond films beyond GoldenEye and select scenes from both TND and TWiNE is beyond me. So that's why I said I must be crazy to think people identify more with the music in his crap movies. So call me nuts now.

But, yeah, the music around this one seems to be mysterious. He's taking the OHMSS approach here; meaning less of Monty Norman's theme. Could be a good thing and could be a bad thing. OHMSS is my second favorite Bond score so we know where I stand on that decision.

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Originally posted by sean:
TWiNE and DAD aren't all that strong, so I would think that most people were elated by the TND score (after Eric Serra's wrechted GoldenEye), and were then progressively let down by David Arnold as he continued (I'm sure that rabid maniac Brendan Cooper disagrees to no end).

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I'm flattered...if only my last name were Cooper.

The only reason music fans had to feel "let down" by TWINE and DAD would be because of their own pre-conceived expectations. The music is still top-notch in those scores, it's merely a different spin to the sound than John Barry had going...and it's on purpose. Arnold himself will be the first to tell you that in TWINE and DAD he was scoring very different types of films than John Barry was scoring with the Bond films of OHMSS or From Russia With Love. To write a score exactly like Barry's style for a film like Die Another Day would have been a mis-match and ineffective. Instead, Arnold understood the style of the film (i.e. big and ridiculous) and wrote a score that matched it while still keeping musical ties with the Barry style at appropriate times.

So, yes, I can understand that many people's (read: John Barry Bond fans) expectations were not met by the scores of TWINE and DAD, but when you look at those films in the greater context of what they are, I think the music hits the nail on the head and <i>expectations[/i] were off the mark.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Could it be that you're underestimating the power of film music and its ability to move it into a certain direction?

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Well, if I remember right (it's been a while since I saw it), Die Another Day climaxed with James Bond surfing tied to a parachute on a giant exploding glacier after running away from a giant heat laser satellite trying to cut him in half with the sound effects of the water, breaking ice, wind, giant laser and surfboard all pounding along. Something about that kind of scene has me thinking that a lilting and tasteful John Barry jazzy cue wouldn't quite have been up to the intensity level necessary to "sell" such a scene.

Of course Arnold hit the tone of DAD, and his score was fitting. That's a film composer's job. After all, when a film composer can't capture the general tone of a film, he seriously needs to rethink his occupation (I'm LOOKING at you, Mr. Media Ventures!).

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Originally posted by gkgyver:

Yes, DAD works in the film, but whether it's a good listening experience, that's a wholly different story.

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He's right on that call; I have never listened to DAD since early 2003. It's tied with GoldenEye as my least favorite and least memorable Bond score (and I've listened to GoldenEye more! HAHA).

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
He's right on that call; I have never listened to DAD since early 2003.

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DAD suffers from a too-short album, yes (stupid Madonna video), but if heard in its full 2-disc score glory, it's fantastic. It has the most John Barry-sounding slow sections of any of the Arnold Bond scores, great new themes, the awesome Cuban version of the Bond theme...tons of great stuff.

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Originally posted by Brendan Anderson:
DAD suffers from a too-short album, yes (stupid Madonna video), but if heard in its full 2-disc score glory, it's fantastic. It has the most John Barry-sounding slow sections of any of the Arnold Bond scores, great new themes, the awesome Cuban version of the Bond theme...tons of great stuff.

-Brendan

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Than I want it!

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Originally posted by nuts_score:

Than I want it!

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I have this... Brendan is right: It's quite a good listen. I'm very impressed with the "Journey to the Ice Base" music; that rendition of the Bond theme and the electronics with it is probably Arnold's best take at Barry's original work.

"Iced Inc." is also a strong action cue, but the first 10 seconds are just shameful. David Arnold seems to be heavily inspired by places with ice; he should score movies only set in the winter time for now on.

Brendan, that Cuban Bond theme is hilarious, I don't know if it's any good, it makes me laugh bigly. BTW, who won in the violent battle for music between the bad boy of film music, David Arnold, and Red Coat pop sensation-trance king, Paul Oakenfold!!??!!

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Originally posted by sean:
nuts, I have to say, there are far worse Bond scores than GoldenEye and DAD. Try Michael Kamen's awful Liscense To Kill score, or Marvin Hamlisch's music to The Spy Who Loved Me. Those too suck hard and are for sure worse than Serra's and Arnold's outings.

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Hey, I like Liscense to Kill . . . well, just a tad. I wish the movie was better; especially after The Living Daylights. Speaking of which, what's the story behind Barry being pushed out of film music in-between TLD/Masquerade and Dances with Wolves?

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Originally posted by nuts_score:

Hey, I like Liscense to Kill . . . well, just a tad. I wish the movie was better; especially after The Living Daylights. Speaking of which, what's the story behind Barry being pushed out of film music in-between TLD/Masquerade and Dances with Wolves?

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It was the fact that he almost died from a ruptured esophogus and didn't work until DANCES WITH WOLVES.

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Originally posted by Bond1965:
It was the fact that he almost died from a ruptured esophogus and didn't work until DANCES WITH WOLVES.

James

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Originally posted by nuts_score:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Bond1965:
[b] It was the fact that he almost died from a ruptured esophogus and didn't work until DANCES WITH WOLVES.

James<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you so much James. It's a blessing that that tragedy didn't fault him in later years because I consider Dances as one of his best scores; he deserved every bit of that Oscar. Now what's the whole story about him not wanting to return and score GoldenEye, instead recommending Eric Serra?[/B]

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Well...I believe he could have scored it if he had really wanted to. He did a replacement score for THE SCARLET LETTER that same year and you know that was probably a last minute assignment.

I think the problem lies in the fact that he was no longer able to have control over the song AND score. Studio pressures had taken control of that aspect of the Bond series and it's a hot political situation.

Oddly, it was Barry who recommended Eric Serra for GOLDENEYE after hearing what he did for LA FEMME NIKTA. Barry was interviewed on one of the James Bond documentaries praising Tina Turner and GOLDENEYE's song if I remember correctly.

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Originally posted by Bond1965:
Well...I believe he could have scored it if he had really wanted to. He did a replacement score for THE SCARLET LETTER that same year and you know that was probably a last minute assignment.

I think the problem lies in the fact that he was no longer able to have control over the song AND score. Studio pressures had taken control of that aspect of the Bond series and it's a hot political situation.

Oddly, it was Barry who recommended Eric Serra for GOLDENEYE after hearing what he did for LA FEMME NIKTA. Barry was interviewed on one of the James Bond documentaries praising Tina Turner and GOLDENEYE's song if I remember correctly.

James

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Thanks again James. The thing about Serra is that his music works so well most of the time (read: all of Luc Besson's films) but in GoldenEye it just didn't fit in the Bond thematic. I think if it were in a Besson film - and without the Norman's theme - it would have been a fine score. Thankfully David Arnold was brought onto TND and the rest is history because I prefer my Serra scores attached to a Besson film. So it wasn't entirely wrong for John to recommend Eric for the job. Strangely enough, The Scarlet Letter is a Barry score that I do not continue to listen to and may have only done so twice since I bought it about two or three years ago. I'm glad he thought Turner's GoldenEye was a worthy addition to the canon as I think it's a very cool Bond title song; it's in my top ten favorite songs for the film series. Your knowledge is very-much appreciated. You've earned your moniker.

NP> Mark Isham's The Black Dahlia (*****/*****)