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Musical complexity is a terrifically difficult thing to pin down.

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That's quite true... and some of the LotR music is intentionally harmonically simple (like the Hobbit music). I suppose a lot of the complexity comes from the way he paints the world (in many different flavors) and the astonishing amount of leitmotifs.

My own personal taste favors lush and often dissonant chords. It's a bias, I admit. As such, a lot of the LotR music doesn't interest me. On the other hand, Shore's action music is often very fascinating (especially the Watcher in the Water, Cave Troll and Balrog material).

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The LOTR scores use the orchestra in a very, very specific way, tell a dramatic story with very unique mannerisms, and balance more leitmotifs present in a single work than has any dramatic piece for centuries. And it does all this, incredibly consistently, for nearly 12 hours straight.

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That's one thing I give the trilogy of a lot of credit for. It's very consistent. While a lot of the thematic material differs from score to score, you can still listen to one of them and know that they're from the LotR trilogy. A lot of it is Shore's personal stamp as well. His music for "Soul of the Ultimate Nation" reminds me a lot of LotR (but I'm sure a large part of that is the way he orchestrates).

Thank you for the informative post. It made me reconsider my way of thinking.

Wow I'm surprised to read that, I thought everybody hated the way that Phantom release was done.
You learn something knew everyday, it's true

Well whether you prefer longer tracks or shorter ones, the software is out there to let you alter tracks any way you want them.

I merged those annoying 30 second tracks together on the Phantom set, and split up a few of the Fellowship cues, and it comes in real handy for getting some WIlliams gems like the instrumental sections of the Reivers suite
Sony's Audio Forge does it easily: http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/Products/ShowProduct.asp?PID=975

As does Media Blaze Pro http://www.blazemp.com/

Both can be trialed for free, and I haven't looked around but I guess there could be free software around too.
But I think if you have a decent collection and are always wishing releases were different, the 50 or 60 bucks is well worth it.

*agape* Does this imply that ROTK:CR will be six hours long?! Yay!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>No the FOTR: CR DVD is an audio only presentation of the full FOTR score in several high-resolution formats. No Symphony performance is included.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mr. Adams quoted me and replied! Sing and Glorify! But, the good sir mis-understood me. I asked for clarification concerning Mr. Shore's wishes to release the symphony. Or, indeed, if it will be released.

Cheers.

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Originally posted by Doug Adams:
And it does all this, incredibly consistently, for nearly 12 hours straight.

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*agape* Does this imply that ROTK:CR will be six hours long?! Yay!

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No the FOTR: CR DVD is an audio only presentation of the full FOTR score in several high-resolution formats. No Symphony performance is included.

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Mr. Adams quoted me and replied! Sing and Glorify! But, the good sir mis-understood me. I asked for clarification concerning Mr. Shore's wishes to release the symphony. Or, indeed, if it will be released.

Yes there is! In the Theatrical Version the Gondor theme is played in a more heroic style but in the EE because of the scene with the palantir (as Aragorn see Arwen’s Death) the Gondor Theme is played in a more sorrowful way (Still with a heroic feel on it but…)

So I doubt that's Grima's theme, since he isn't anywhere in the picture around that time. It's probably a danger motive for Rohan, but we'll know for sure very soon

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Yes there is! In the Theatrical Version the Gondor theme is played in a more heroic style but in the EE because of the scene with the palantir (as Aragorn see Arwen’s Death) the Gondor Theme is played in a more sorrowful way (Still with a heroic feel on it but…)

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Originally posted by Doug Adams:
...
And so will ROTK: CR… which has now begun production.

-Doug

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I think emotionally, it works very, very well indeed. I mean, Arwen despairing in her diminishing belief that Aragorn will ever return; and then Aragorn seeing Arwen that way. It's just his look when he rides out that completes the palantir scene - that look of complete hopelessness, as if he's suddenly resigned to his fate.

And of course, that's just Sauron doing what he does best, weakening his enemies by throwing them into uncertainty and despair.

Maybe it's just me, but even when Aragorn utters "For Frodo" and charges, it's somehow fitting that he's doing this not because of Arwen's, not for himself, for nothing but for what he had sworn to do - to go with Frodo to the end, even to the fires of Mordor.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just imagining things, but I like the scene. It gives Aragorn's riding forth from Minas Tirith a very defeated and predestined feel, wholly different from the charge that he leads at Helm's Deep.

But again, that's just me

>>> I think I know what you're talking about. That theme also plays just before Gamling dresses Theoden for battle.<<<

Speaking without any authority, of course, I would think no.

Gamling and Grimbold (whose name we only hear Theoden shout out) would be associated with the Rohan theme, Madril to the Gondor theme (if at all, he only dramatic moment about him is his death - and there's definitely no Gondor theme around that time), Ugluk and Lurtz to Saruman/Isengard, Grishnakh to Mordor, and Gorbag to Minas Morgul (there is a separate "theme" for Minas Morgul if I'm not mistaken).

Edit:
I think minor characters/people-as-a-whole are treated as extensions off major themes.

The back-ups have back-ups, believe me!

>>>And with all this talk of alternate/original versions to be found "on another release", I do hope we will yet get to hear the theatrical Journey to Rivendell, sans the additional Aragorn (?) bits, in the future.>>>

These types of decisions are all on the burner right now.

>>>That's quite true... and some of the LotR music is intentionally harmonically simple (like the Hobbit music). I suppose a lot of the complexity comes from the way he paints the world (in many different flavors) and the astonishing amount of leitmotifs.

My own personal taste favors lush and often dissonant chords. It's a bias, I admit. As such, a lot of the LotR music doesn't interest me. On the other hand, Shore's action music is often very fascinating (especially the Watcher in the Water, Cave Troll and Balrog material).>>>

No need to apologies, all issues of taste, by their nature, are biases. Nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything with holding a dissenting view. Variety of opinion is a good sign, I’d say.

>>>*agape* Does this imply that ROTK:CR will be six hours long?! Yay!>>>

ROTK: CR will not be 6 hours long, sorry if I came across misleadingly. It will, however, unquestionably be the longest of the releases.

>>> I asked for clarification concerning Mr. Shore's wishes to release the symphony. Or, indeed, if it will be released.>>>

Right now, no release of the Symphony is planned. Once the Complete Recordings are finished, perhaps this issue will again be up for discussion.

In the meantime, the live Symphony will continue to tour.

>>>About Grima's theme: so there is one, but not the one I mentioned?
Then what is that motif I mentioned? That one gets quite a workout in TTT. To be more specific: it plays at the very first sight of Grima on the low basses/ celli: D,E,F,G,A.>>>

>>>I think I know what you're talking about. That theme also plays just before Gamling dresses Theoden for battle.

So I doubt that's Grima's theme, since he isn't anywhere in the picture around that time. It's probably a danger motive for Rohan, but we'll know for sure very soon>>>

I think Incanus may have asked about this figure many, many posts ago… perhaps it was even an email. What you’ve got there is simply a D-minor pentachord. They’re literally all over the LOTR scores, generally used as building clusters, though not always. And, as a matter of fact, they’re a device Shore uses in quite a number of his scores… though generally in different ways. There is no specific dramatic element associated with this device, primarily due to its proliferation. I *may* make mention of its appearance at a later date, but it's really just part of the overall fabric, not a distinct motif per se.

Re: Grima, he’s actually got a very specific… and very unique… motif. Listen very closely next time you’re digging through the film. Your ears are already in the right register, so you’re almost there!

>>>Hmmm...Doug's begun work on ROTK:CR? See? Now we know what he meant by "the time frame between TTT:CR and ROTK:CR will be very small.">>>

It was smaller even that I’d predicted. I’m still finishing TTT at the same time!

>>>So, the production will take a year, or we can cross our fingers wishing a ROTK CR release this summer? I imagine that with thes e two CR releases behind your team could complete it like a breeze>>>

Well…

As much as I’d love to say this were down to a science now, each score gets longer and more complex. So there are always new curves being thrown… but, honestly, that’s part of the fun!

>>>DA,are there also themes for mini-minor characters?Gamling,Grimbold,Mardil,Ugluk,Grishnak,Lurtz,Gorbag etc?>>>

No sir. But, that goes back to Shore’s approach. What, in LOTR, gets musical themes? How is the score constructed? It always echoes Tolkien’s writing, which was based on hierarchal structures. A character is not just a stand-alone cipher. He/she has parents, those parents represent a lineage, that lineage is tied to a culture, that culture has neighbors, allies, enemies, traditions, etc. There are actually relatively few “character” themes in Shore’s LOTR… and those that do have them are presented as an offshoot of a culture. That’s another connection to Wagner, in a way… the idea of a hierarchy of material, not just tunes for character for the sake of having a melody to fall back on.

>>>I think minor characters/people-as-a-whole are treated as extensions off major themes.>>>

Absolutely true. Same holds for major characters, for the most part.

>>>I think the music would become to complex and would just burst if minor characters would have their own theme, it's already that complex wit just major persons and things their themes.>>>

I don’t know that it’s a question of complexity. I’m sure Shore could write a killer tune for Fatty Bolger were he so inclined. But what would be the purpose? It’s a question of appropriateness, I think. What story was Shore telling? What music was important for the story? How can that story be properly populated with leitmotifs?

>>>New interesting info! In the Filmsradio interview of Howard shore, Shore mention the times of the Scores and send: FOTR was about 3 hours TTT was 3 hours and something more and that Return of the King is is 3:30 – 4:00 hours
Can this be true? >>>

Oh, it's true all right!

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Re: Grima, he’s actually got a very specific… and very unique… motif. Listen very closely next time you’re digging through the film. Your ears are already in the right register, so you’re almost there!

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Does it end on F, Bb, A?

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>>>And with all this talk of alternate/original versions to be found "on another release", I do hope we will yet get to hear the theatrical Journey to Rivendell, sans the additional Aragorn (?) bits, in the future.>>>

These types of decisions are all on the burner right now.

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To quote a person very dear to me: "Well, now we're getting somewhere!"
I'm so jittery, it's like a first date

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Daniel Schweiger: "When Peter Jackson approached you with the Lord of the Rings movies -- I can only imagine the size of that mountain you were going to have to climb. How did you look at it?"

Howard Shore: "Well, you go kind of step by step. And, um, that was quite a long project; it was close to four years of writing.

The book is incredible, I mean, you know, it's a classic of the twentieth century, and I love the book, I'd read it in the sixties. If you just go, you know, with Peter, and Fran and Philippa, because they were screenwriters , they had so much insight into it. We just worked so closely together, you really became a part of the writing of the story.

And the music was done in a very close collaboration. The composition started with the Mines of Moria -- when the Fellowship entered the Mines of Moria -- and they're in the dark, the door closes and they're in a completely dark place; and that's kinda where you were, you started with them. And then Gandalf lights -- you know, illuminates his staff; it was like Peter lighting up ideas. And then you're kinda walking through the darkness step-by-step....and as you go you're learning more about your enviroment and where you are -- the score was kinda written like that, it was kinda written as part of the journey of these characters. You kind of wrote your way through Moria, the steps of Khazad-dum, the Balrog...you know, you work your way through there, you came out to the plains of Lothlorien, you kind of work your way through that and into the forest. And then you went back before Moria, and back through Rivendell...

Early on, when I first saw pieces of the film I went away and did a lot of research, I probably did four months of not writing a note but just reading everything about Tolkien...about what motivated him to write the book -- he spent fourteen years writing it -- and the period it was written in; the influence of the first World War on Tolkien; the influence of book once it was published in the early 50's and how it affected our culture; and also how it affected other films and things like that -- which it has enormously.

And also I had to understand things like Ring mythology -- Philippa was a great help with that, Philippa is a great Tolkien scholar, she showed you all the areas around Lord of the Rings, like all of the influences of things about it. And then of course you had to study the languages....there was a lot to learn and a lot to catch up on.

And then, sitting down and feel comfortable, I guess you just push everything away....everything goes away into [...?] stories -- and then you go: well, what do you have to say about this? How do you feel about the Shire? How do you feel about Fellowship? And how do you feel about all the great qualities about the book, like honor, loyalty, friendship, sacrifice...what is your expression about those ideas, in music?

And that's really the proccess. And then you can write a piece for the Shire, and you can write the Fellowship theme, and feel, well, those are true expressions -- those are my expressions of what those things mean to me. And once you do that, and you feel you've done your work, then you go on and create Rivendell...or then you go into Lothlorien. You continue expressing the ideas until they start to add up -- until they start to become larger...it's like architecture; where you're building this foundation, you're building a skyscraper, but you're doing it with a very firm foundation.

By the time you wrote into Return of the King you had built so much of it that it was actually kind of a wonderful proccess -- by the end *laughs* they had to drag me away from writing it because the complexity of the book was so incredible that you loved working on it because doors would keep opening and you'd go through them, and you'd see other connections to things. It was an endlessly revealing, interesting proccess."

DS: "Now thankfully we have the entire scores coming out -- we have The Two Towers coming out in November, the entire score.

How many hours did you end up writing for this?"

HS: "I think about twelve. Fellowship of the Ring came out, the Complete Recordings, that was three hours, and Two Towers is coming out November 7th, and I think that's a little over three hours. That's six. And then I think Return of the King is at least four, maybe for-and-a-half. And then, there was a lot of other music written. Other pieces that were works in progress, works that led up to other pieces; attempts at things that I might have orchestrated and recorded, alternates and all that. Probably close to that much music.

But it was done over four years, and it's...as I go back through it, because I've been working on Two Towers: The Complete Recordings...we've been going back. And you know, it's taken eight or nine months to go back through it all. Just to go back through it. And now we're starting on Return of the King. But it's incredible just to go back through it and see what you've done, and try to analyze it and sort some of it out -- because it was written in a very linear way, I was writing literally all the time. And so, the archive of it is something we're all kind of looking at now, and trying to really sort it all out really. And that's really what the Complete Recordings are -- it's like the true expression of all the compositions to the story."

DS: "Do you think that comparing both the films and your scores as Wagnerian...do you think that's apt?"

HS: "Well, Wagner taught us about how to use things like leitmotives. Which is an incredible thing. He also taught us the use of expression in music -- that you could have music that expressed ideas of places, and character, and culture. Those are important ideas that have never really been utilized to such a degree that he did. And those are important concepts, really, in terms of telling stories, in terms of expressing certain ideas; whether it's theatre, or in opera, or in film. That's something that really took place in the mid-19th century, and so the use of the language for Lord of the Rings is based in that language. The composition that I did is really based in this 19th century language -- it really has a lot of modernisms, there's really lots of 20th-century techniques used throughout the score; but the basis of it is based in this mid 19th-century language. And it was done that way for storytelling. It's a good way to express ideas -- that I felt were right to express this idea about Middle-earth, a culture five, six thousand years ago; an ancient culture. It was a way to express the ideas, and there are some connections to [Wagner's] great work, yes."

DS: "Do you think both the score,and the film are as close to opera as you're going to get in a movie?"

HS: "Well, I wrote a lot of music, as I said, maybe twelve hours. Der Ring des Nibelungen is much longer, well maybe not much longer, I think it's sixteen hours, if I'm not mistaken. But it was written over a longer period of time....the connection is, they're both large pieces written about Ring mythology. So there's a really a connection to that, to that concept of Ring mythology.

And they're also large orchestral pieces. Lord of the Rings is written for symphony orchestra of 100, with folk instruments added to that, sometimes as many as eight, or ten, or twelve folk instruments added to the symphony orchestra; plus a mixed choir of eighty and a children's choir of fity or sixty children. It's over two hundred. Even the proportions are, um, the closest connection to it...plus you're using all of Tolkien's created languages. The closest connection really is to opera, I felt. As a dramatic work."

DS: "And now your music has really taken on a new life; I saw at the Hollywood Bowl with your Lord of the Rings concert."

HS: "Well, the symphony is a two-hour and ten minute, six movement piece that is the twelve hours cut down into this smaller piece -- it's for symphony orchestra, and chorus, and children's chorus. And it's played all over the world -- I did about forty concerts in all different places around the world, in 04 mostly. 05 was a real writing year, I did some conducting of it last year. This year I did two or three concerts of it with the Cleveland Orchestra -- which was just incredible, a wonderful orchestra.

The has piece has had over one hundred performances. I think it's just an enjoyable piece to work on. I think the idea was --[???? ????] was really the one that put the bug in my head to do it -- he said, 'If you don't create a score for this, the piece will only be on record,' by creating the score, you have given it new life, orchestras are able to play the piece; choirs can learn to sing it, the children's choir learns to sing it. And wherever it's done, it's always done by local orchestra, and chorus, and children's chorus. So it has very much a wonderful community aspect to it. It played in Minneapolis Friday, and tonight, Saturday. And it just becomes part of the culture in a way that people who are interested in Tolkien's work -- they can read the book, they can see the film, they can also be part of the music. So it has a wonderful spirit to it, and I kinda like that as a musician and a composer that's a way of almost giving it back, so people can experience the things they liked about the book and the film. It's kind of a fun, nice thing to do."

DS: "After your work with Peter on the Lord of the Rings films, unfortunately, King Kong didn't work out; but do you think your friendship and bond that youestablish whileworking on the trilogy was enough to say, well this kinda didn't work out, but we'll work together again."

HS: "Oh, sure."

DS: "If you don't mind me asking, why don't you think King Kong worked out, for whatever reason?"

HS: "Well, some collaborations just work well with different pieces and some don't, you know. It's fairly complicated, and I suspect it's been discussed a lot and....you can have very successful collaborations, and Lord of the Ring is truly the result of a collaboration. That's really showing what can happen when all things be equal, and you have this great work to work off of, what can be created."

DS: "Now there's been talk of Peter doing the Hobbit; would you like to go back to Middle-earth?"

HS: "Oh, I'd love to."

DS: "Do you think it's likely?"

HS: "I hope so."

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P.S.:Happy Birthday Howard Shore.

_______written____recorded____on the CR
FotR___3.20(?)____3.10(?)________3
TT_____4.10(?)____3.25(?)______3.08
RotK___4.30(?)____3.40(?)______3.22(?)
total____12_______10.15________9.30

"bonus" disc - .45 to 1.30(?)

Do ya understand.....maybe?
Thank you, much.

And Howard Shore, I am sure you're having a wonderful Birthday!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you again for such a wonderful score!!!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MR.SHORE!

...guess this is where they get the saying "One year older, one year better!!"

Have a great year

And a very happy birthday to you too gkgyver, may all your LOTR dreams come true this year

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
How could I forget Mr. Shore's birthday? It's one day before mine. The door's open, be my guest

Too bad I'm still sick. And the sand of time is running even slower ...

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P.S.:I'm sure he'll be featured on Wikipedia once his book is released.