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Hmmm...and why have they been "initiating" all this violence?

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Because they hate the West and our way of life.

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Originally posted by Magpie:
Might I politely but firmly echo ttbk's request for the political conversation to happen somewhere else? All this talk of stopping while making one's point yet again doesn't count as stopping.

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Sorry, everyone! Didn't mean to open Pandora's box, just was giving my opinion! My final say on this matter is, let the actors act, let the people decide. And with that I will step off my soap box.

Now, back to the topic at hand. I do remember seeing FOTR:CR in Barnes & Noble and even at Fry's, but never at the huge national chain stores such as Best Buy, Wal-Mart, etc. I ordered mine through B&N for home delivery. Just think! Less than 2 weeks away!

-Chad

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All this talk of stopping while making one's point yet again doesn't count as stopping.

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My final say...

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It's like the first date with a girl whose best parts you haven't even seen yet

By the way, why is there a track called "Faramir's Good Council"? A bit cynical, isn't it?

Sorry gkgyver , I don't have the soundtrack by Marco Beltrami as of yet, although my collection is still growing......
Do you have many of his...., and is he good, I can remember I saw I, Robot, and I enjoyed that score.....

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
Well, the track listing is up everywhere, it can only be a matter of days before there are samples. In fact, it's only a matter of days before I can hold it in my hands!

It's like the first date with a girl whose best parts you haven't even seen yet

By the way, why is there a track called "Faramir's Good Council"? A bit cynical, isn't it?

[Message edited by gkgyver on 10-25-2006]

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(note: the message below was supposed to be posted yesterday evening...it just wouldn't post; I'll divide it up)

14 Days to Go!...(2 WEEKS! )

To Doug, Timdalf, and the others: I have to say that I'm "obsessed" with leitmotifs. I understand music theory/composition analysis, and doing a complete thematic analysis of the LotR scores is truly a dream.....one that could come true. I know this would be a hugely daunting task (boring to all [but me] at times), but it'd be a great learning experience.....getting to "go inside" the mind of one of the greatest composers to ever walk the earth!

I can (and have done) my own analyses of the scores, but they're far from complete. I would like to do it similar to this:
__FotR CR
__disc 1
__track 1 - 0:00-(whatever) Lothlorien
______... - ... History of the Ring
______... - ... Ringwraith/Descending Thirds
etc.
It would be as detailed as possible. I understand that it would be like a catalogue/phonebook, but that's fine with me. Maybe I am the only person on the face of the earth that wants this...? And shall I be denied this? *cries*

I like your Annotated Score, Doug, but it has too little thematic info for me to be satisfied, but I understand that it's for everyone, not just me. (No need to be selfish.) And I know that your wonderfully awesome Themes section in the liner notes is incomplete. FotR's lacks at least one: the Power of the Ring (there may be a couple more, though they may not be considered themes from your perspective). I don't mean to sound like an arrogant ***hole, I just have a good musical understanding and I crave so much thematic info! Can't help it, just like Pippin.

I would like to show you my anaylses first. And, I was thinking that maybe we could (by email or on this site) analyze 1 track a week...? What do ya think? I think that's reasonable. Again, this would probably be after all 3 CRs have been released. I would really appreciate your willingness to do this.....with us, or at least with me.

I just realized that "The Mearas" (the first minute of "Forth Eorlingas") contains the Rohan theme, briefly, and either Aragorn's Hero theme or Gandalf's Rider theme. It's played by the french horn. You see, that's one small little bit, and it's so hard to hear, AND, I'm so excited because I heard it! Yahoo! But, like I said before, I really don't think I'll ever be able to hear and know of all the themes' occurences, etc. on my own. I need help with this. But, if you're not interested.....okay then, I'll just suffer for the rest of my life.

Timdalf, thanks for the list (even though it's not needed). I appreciate the thought! An encyclopedic commentary on the musical themes.....yes!, that's what I'm after! Just thinking about it is exciting! All of the subtleties, "modifications", renditions, etc. Oh, joy! And why the changes occur, Shore's reasons for all of this, etc. ........WONDERFUL, I say! I'd love to know this, too (unlikely as it is). Hmmmm.....maybe I'll be able to meet with Mr. Shore, eventually (years from now), and discuss the LotR scores. Ya never know... I do plan on writing music in a similar style, meaning "LotR style". Not too similar, of course. (I'd keep using emoticons, but it won't let me post my message if I do...grhhh.)

I have Wagner's Ring Cycle, and I'm working on learning about the leitmotifs and more! So much fun! I just thought about something...by the time I'm 70 years old, I might have "completely" analyzed the LotR scores, and Wagner's Ring Cycle, and I could put those analyses on the internet (or whatever we'll have in 50 years). Timdalf, about doing something and publishing it, I don't think that's necessary. A complete analysis can be done without having to turn it into a book, or even in verbal format. Just need the internet to do it and share it...

I'd recommend The Omen for the different take on Jerry Goldsmith's material.

quote:

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Originally posted by THX 1138 4eb:
>>>@ THX
Listen to "Magnetic Personality" around 3:30. It's a quite chilling moment.>>>

Sorry gkgyver , I don't have the soundtrack by Marco Beltrami as of yet, although my collection is still growing......
Do you have many of his...., and is he good, I can remember I saw I, Robot, and I enjoyed that score.....

Getting back to HS , Doug , in the two disc set, the notes mention that HS is going to score another Fly film, or was that an operatic play..........do you have any more information?????????

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Originally posted by Cavalier_of_Palahndtüs:
now, the rest...

An encyclopedic commentary on the musical themes.....yes!, that's what I'm after!

---

I will help you with this undertaking, if you would like it.

>>>Who, may I ask, composed that podcast theme? I like the Americana epic feel of it. Reminds me of the feeling I get when listening to Williams' Olympic compositions and Horner's Apollo 13.>>>

I’m glad you like it. I composed it, actually. (My Masters was in composition.)

>>>If you mean what I think you mean, CoP, that would require a bar by bar listing of every appearance of each theme as a whole or in part... This would require quite an encyclopedic commentary as musical themes can change or be combined in so many subtle ways. And what would be of most interest is why the changes occur, so it would indeed require a vast dense and technical commentary!>>>

A few more words on this subject, if you’ll indulge me. The other issue, in regards to the above, is that occasionally the material in Shore’s score leaves the door to interpretation open. If you hear C Bb C over a shot of the heroes, is Shore referencing the Fellowship? Is he referencing The Heroics of Aragorn? Gandalf the White (In the Fellowship)? The Realm of Gondor (In Ascension)? Dramatic context clues help much of the time, but every once in a while Shore will use material that *can and does* refer to any number of dramatic elements… that non-specificity is part of the design. This plays an especially large role in ROTK where material is combined to the point that it begins to overlap. There are plenty of statements in ROTK where History of the Ring combines with Evil of the Ring… which pushes it right into Evil Times’ territory. So which is it? All? None?

That’s an amazing subtlety. Sometimes Shore will unravel the riddle, but sometimes he lets it stand for its own sake. Combination *is* identification. Each viewer/listener will take away something different… and oftentimes the same viewer/listener will take away something different each time.

These are, in many instances, open-source scores. That’s not to suggest that it’s impossible to track down all the material that is in the scores (because, really, that’s what we’re doing), but that this material, in application, is sometimes purposefully indistinct.

We worked very carefully on this project to come up with an analytical form that would not deprive Shore’s score of its beauty. Get too catalogue-like and you’re missing the ambiguity and structural subtlety. Get too flowery and you’re missing the technical flair. It’s a fine line, and we’ve given it a huge amount of attention. It’s not as simple as “How do we reach the audience best?” which is, in itself, a huge consideration, obviously. The question was always, “How do we best represent this amazing work?”

>>>As far as I can remember, this was "not out of the question".>>>

It still isn’t out of the question, but it is out of the present… meaning with everyone’s hands so full, such a thing probably won’t be discussed for a little while yet.

>>>And in fact, is there such a score in a finished form as yet? I imagine the CR's were compiled directly from the audio recordings. So the scores actually used originally at the recording sessions may be in some sort of as yet somewhat different and possibly even chaotic state...>>>

This project is, at least, being tended to now. The full scores are currently being engraved for archival purposes at Shore’s offices.

>>>That suggests an idea for Doug's book though: perhaps some facsimiles of pages showing the stages of M. Shore's working process: i.e., a sketch or two, a handwritten (or computer written) recension of a page or two, then a final printed version of some of the actual orchestral parts... You know, a sort of fragment from a musical counterpart to C. Tolkien's "The History of Middle-earth"!>>>

This idea is on the table, yes!

>>>Wasn't it a German site or some other international retail site that first had clips last year? Or was it Soundtrack.net?>>>

It was the good ol’ FSM Podcast!

>>>Getting back to HS , Doug , in the two disc set, the notes mention that HS is going to score another Fly film, or was that an operatic play..........do you have any more information?????????>>>

Yes, this is his opera, The Fly… which will be directed for the stage by David Cronenberg. It premieres next year.

>>>I like your Annotated Score, Doug, but it has too little thematic info for me to be satisfied, but I understand that it's for everyone, not just me. (No need to be selfish.) And I know that your wonderfully awesome Themes section in the liner notes is incomplete. FotR's lacks at least one: the Power of the Ring (there may be a couple more, though they may not be considered themes from your perspective).>>>

Sorry, to be contradictory, but the liners are, in fact, complete from a leitmotif standpoint. There is no Power of the Ring theme, this is just a fan invention. (I know what they’re talking about with this one, but it’s been misidentified. You’ll see later on.) The Fellowship of the Ring features three Ring themes, no more no less. As I say, there are a couple of structural, non-leitmotivic ideas in Fellowship that will be discussed soon, but as far as specific leitmotif themes, you’re seeing everything that’s there. Likewise, TTT will be complete… again there are a couple of structural things in there, but they’ll be discussed in the Two Towers’ Annotated Score. I think people often get confused by Shore’s variations… and occasionally mistake some of his stylistic tendencies as representing something in the drama. But, believe me, you’re getting the whole kit and caboodle! The book will offer more detail, but as far as musical material, we’re not holding anything back. It’ll all make sense once you’ve got all the pieces.

Ok, that’s all for today. I’ll be back later in the week - hopefully tomorrow - to discuss Podcast details!

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Originally posted by Doug Adams:
That’s an amazing subtlety. Sometimes Shore will unravel the riddle, but sometimes he lets it stand for its own sake. Combination *is* identification. Each viewer/listener will take away something different… and oftentimes the same viewer/listener will take away something different each time.

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I've also been informed numerous times that I was wrong about something. Sometimes I am... clearly. But other times, I think, "well... I think I'm just approaching it differently." or, "Okay, this is how Shore thought of it, but I think this other approach, even though he may not ever have intended it, is also very interesting."

As an educator, I'm more interested in how we develop ideas and what happens while we develop them than I am in figuring out the right ones and then memorizing them. I love how any discussion tells us as much about ourselves as it does the subject at hand. I explored some of my thinking on this page: http://www.geocities.com/magpie930/THEMES/Mthemes.htm

You have a big task at hand. To present this information in a way that honors the creator, that is commercially viable and profitable, that addresses the interest of a wide range of fans, and that is accessible to as many people as possible. I think you're doing a remarkable job. If I had 2 hours of coffee house time with you, it would probably not contain much thematic discussion at all. It would be all process in a more global sense.

Thanks again, for all you contribute. I'm prompted to ask, are you a Tolkien-book fan? If so, were you before the movies or after? And I know that Howard has addressed this some. I know he delved into the books during the movie and I believe became quite absorbed in them. Was this an attachment that served him well during the movies or did it grow into more than that? The answer to those question are personal and can be ignored... and no answer will lessen my opinion of either of you. It's just a shiny Magpie bit of information that fascinates me.

Originally posted by Doug Adams:

>>>The other issue, in regards to the above, is that occasionally the material in Shore’s score leaves the door to interpretation open. If you hear C Bb C over a shot of the heroes, is Shore referencing the Fellowship? Is he referencing The Heroics of Aragorn? Gandalf the White (In the Fellowship)? The Realm of Gondor (In Ascension)? Dramatic context clues help much of the time, but every once in a while Shore will use material that *can and does* refer to any number of dramatic elements… that non-specificity is part of the design. This plays an especially large role in ROTK where material is combined to the point that it begins to overlap. There are plenty of statements in ROTK where History of the Ring combines with Evil of the Ring… which pushes it right into Evil Times’ territory. So which is it? All? None?

That’s an amazing subtlety. Sometimes Shore will unravel the riddle, but sometimes he lets it stand for its own sake. Combination *is* identification. Each viewer/listener will take away something different… and oftentimes the same viewer/listener will take away something different each time.

These are, in many instances, open-source scores. That’s not to suggest that it’s impossible to track down all the material that is in the scores (because, really, that’s what we’re doing), but that this material, in application, is sometimes purposefully indistinct.

We worked very carefully on this project to come up with an analytical form that would not deprive Shore’s score of its beauty. Get too catalogue-like and you’re missing the ambiguity and structural subtlety. Get too flowery and you’re missing the technical flair.
-Doug<<<

Thanks for the reminder that (as Gandalf says to Saruman): “…he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.” Book II, Chapter 2, “The Council of Elrond”, p. 259

We in the West with our heritage of Aristotle and Scholasticism and legalistic rationalism tend to forget that to dissect something it has to be a corpse! We try to define, categorize and verbally relate everything and so sometimes loose the "mystery" of reality and in so doing the real significance it has beyond our powers of analysis! We try to encapsulate reality and we fail, even with human reality (especially human reality!).

Not to bore you all again with a Wagner reference: but, I have come to the conclusion that one of the appeals of his work in general, and the Ring in particular, is its multivalence, its incompleteness, its gaps. What happens to Alberich in the end?, or how much does Siegfried (or Brunnhilde) know or not know in Gotterdammerung?, or what really motivates Wotan at the World Ash Tree? Or on the musical plane: why does the Norn Rope of Fate break to the Sword (Heroism) motiv, and the classic: why does the (so-called) Renunciation of Love Motiv sound when Siegmund is pulling out the Sword from the tree and declaring his love for Sieglinde... How much time elapses between the end of "Siegfried" and the beginning of "Gotterdammerung"? And on and on...

In a very real sense his Ring is "interactive": we are MEANT to fill in the blanks... and of course that is true of what the music "means" or how this passage relates at this or that point to another... And how we do that "completing" depends on what the work means to us, individually and as a community. This is part of its endless appeal. And the same is true of Tolkien. Who ARE the Elves (or the Valar!)? What ARE the Two Trees... and so on.

So rather, I think what we all (we with our questions and Doug with his commentary) are driving at is: What questions are raised by M. Shore's music?... what are possible avenues for further understanding?... How does it relate to itself and thus to the film, and then the book?...

One of the pitfalls of Wagnerian commentaries has been the very names of the leitmotiven: They are useful and somewhat unavoidable, but also constrictive. Great music is not less articulate than words, but more so, more precise and more evocative. To abstract music into this or that verbal formulae is to artificially confine it in a jar away from the free air of a living experience of hearing it.

One of the joys of Doug's commentaries is that they do not do this, at least I think so. They suggest, even as Tolkien suggests a whole back-world behind the events in his Ring, a whole musical forest to be explored as we listen again and again to a musical work that paints Tolkien's world and PJ's rendition of it in such vibrant colors. As we look out at the autumn leaves turning (here in the Northern Hemisphere) can we say where one color begins and ends, on a hillside, in one tree, in a single leaf? No, but in speaking our impressions of those colors we do make ourselves aware of how magnificent the panoply is and of how we make it our own...

And that is, I am sure, what makes Shore's music so appealing: its being true to Tolkien, and also its ability to open us up to impressions of Tolkien's world that we might otherwise not be having. Doug, then, takes that Tolkienesque musical world and further maps it out. And no map does anything but pull us back to exploring the actual contours it represents: just as Tolkien's "imagined" world by reflecting in so many ways our own, calls us out to a better and richer encounter with our cultural and historical environment.

So let's observe (the music, the film, the book) away! But not fool ourselves into thinking we can or should ever complete the job either in breadth or in depth!!

Timdalf

>>>Getting back to HS , Doug , in the two disc set, the notes mention that HS is going to score another Fly film, or was that an operatic play..........do you have any more information?????????>>>

----Yes, this is his opera, The Fly… which will be directed for the stage by David Cronenberg. It premieres next year.----

Doug, since you read this board I have to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your work on this project. In college I never appreciated music more than in classes... it was so enlightening to take, say, a Beethoven class, and have the teacher explain the music, point out the thematic developments and relationships, the common threads, and the growth of styles as we listened. And to have a source like the Annotated Score and soundtrack booklet is like taking the class from a teacher who sat by Beethoven's side! We are truly lucky to have someone so devoted to this project recognize our hunger for depth and for enlightenment.

That being said...

Does anyone (Doug or otherwise) know why the colors on the packaging are as they are? I mean, the movie packaging was very consistent across DVDs and books with its Green, Red and Blue color scheme... but the soundtrack packages seem to be mixing it up. Not that I'm saying the packaging isn't absolutely beautiful (it is) but it seems so arbitrary.

As a burgeoning designer, I'm always curious about the strange disconnect in branding that surrounds film projects. I mean, LOTR was very consistent in its promotional material, using the same logo (for example) across posters, DVDs, books, billboards... and yet, as is the case with so many films, that had nothing to do with the logo that was designed and shown in the actual film titles. Very strange how they always do that.

Martin

Eventually, the color scheme was decided upon for the videos--green for FOTR, red for TTT, and blue for ROTK. Having already released a red FOTR soundtrack, what were the options?

1. Match the DVD color scheme after the fact, giving us the original red FOTR soundtrack, a matching red TTT, and a matching blue ROTK. I'm glad they didn't do that.

2. Re-release the FOTR limited soundtrack in green along with the red TTT limited soundtrack. I am glad this didn't happen.

3. Make them all red to match the initial release. I'm also glad they didn't do that.

4. Use the green/red/blue scheme, but in a different order. (This is what they ended up doing.) Within this option are two sub-options:

4A. FOTR was already red--swap colors with TTT and make it green, then release ROTK in blue. This would make one soundtrack match the DVD but not the others, and would drive anal retentives like me completely crazy.

4B. FOTR was already red--make TTT blue and ROTK green. All three colors are used, with none matching the DVDs. This is what they ultimately chose to do, and it makes the most sense to me.

Now.

-Doug

PS – My message board time is going to be limited for the next few days, so if you feel the need to spread the Nine Questions invitation to others, please, by all means, feel free to do so.

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Originally posted by Doug Adams:
I highly recommend you all head here.
http://media20a.libsyn.com/podcasts/fsmpodcast/FSM_Podcast_019.mp3

Now.

-Doug

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WOWEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!! That was exciting! Thank you so much for that Doug. Finally, the Gondor Bros. flashback composition, and the Fellowship theme intertwined with the Isengaurd theme composition! Just....genious. What was that last 30 seconds from. Its ridiculously cool!

Now, time to think of a good question for the old podcast.

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Originally posted by tomandshell:
The color red was chosen for the limited FOTR soundtrack before the film was released in theaters, and long before a color scheme for the DVDs had been decided upon and communicated to all the branches of all the companies who were releasing anything tied into the LOTR films.

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Is that something you read somewhere, or just a theory? I mean, it sounds like a good theory in any case. But if it's true, it shows that merchandising slipped up by letting the first soundtrack slip out without being coordinated to the master plan.

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Originally posted by Timdalf:

To Cavalier and company:

A dismal thought: It has finally dawned on me that it so happens that the Orc/Saruman/Sauron conspiracy that runs our not so Middle-earth decided to schedule US Election Day on Nov. 7 which happens to be the day the noble Hobbit/Dunadain/Elven heroes of the Complete Recordings decided to release TTT!!! So if you, like me, are getting your copy via the US Postal Service, it will not arrive for sure on Nov. 7th.... OH LAMENTATION and WOE!!! The agony continues...! Another case of virtue (in this case, patience) being a struggle!

Timdalf

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No seriously, I just can't help but hold you in the highest respect for your enthusiam, sincerity and time...and of course, your generosity in indulging us crazzzzzzzy fans when you are not otherwise pampering us with subtle hints .

And yeah, you were right all along, it's well worth the wait. I'm about to preorder my copy

Thanks Doug, really thanks,
Earl.

SCCCREEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMM!!!!!!

Edit:
And yes, what the heck are those things happening at the end...they actually sent a long shiver down my spine. Goddamn it! I'm all over the place and my parents are wondering what the fuss is about

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Originally posted by jb1234:
Those last thirty seconds were AWESOME! Loved those shrieking brass.

I can't remember what scene of the film the Isengard/Fellowship theme is from. Can anyone clue me in?

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