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Originally posted by Doug Adams:
It’s in there, of course. Heck, that one could never be left off anyway… it includes a tiny premonition of one of the most important themes in The Lord of the Rings!
-Doug[/B]

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I didn't really know what I was talking about at the time (if I had time, I would redo it all completely differently), but I had an idea this was connected to Return of the King in that scene... timecode from the region 4 EE DVD: http://www.moviemusic.com/mb/Forum1/HTML/012097.html

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26. Sauron Searches (6:24)**,#

26a. The Heir of Numenor / 26b. The Black Gate is Closed 4:19 ** #

00:58:41 As Gandalf tells Aragorn that Sauron fears the heir of Numenor, sombre strings creep in.
00:59:23 As Gandalf describes the advantage that they have in the knowledge of Frodo’s quest, we hear a new motif that could be titled ‘The Urgency of the Quest’. For muted brass and strings, it is at the same time haunting, mournful and urgent. The opening of the theme can be sampled as the audio for the chapter 17 menu icon. The motif is resolved with warmer strings as Gandalf learns that Sam went with Frodo. [i] I've come to think there is a hint of a dark version of the theme heard at the end of the ROTK track 'The Black Gate is Open' and in the chorus of Annie Lennox's song 'Into the West' here. It bears some relationship to the material heard towards the end of the ROTK track 'The End of All Things'.
01:00:11 The strings build as we cut to Sam climbing up the slag hills of the Dagorlad.
01:00:19 The music segues from the extended edition music for the ‘Heir of Numenor’ to the building strings from album track ‘The Black Gate is Closed’. The strings and brass build to a partial statement of the Mordor theme for raita as the Black Gate comes into view, followed by flowing strings as Smeagol tries to control himself.
01:00:33 Pounding percussion and string/brass reprises of elements of the Danger Arpeggio.
01:00:51 The raita returns to state the Mordor theme as we view the Black Gate from above. In the film, percussion for the Haradrim army is heard.
01:01:30 The Gate opens, pulled Olog-hai whose movements are underscored with urgent strings, brass and percussion.
01:01:51 Percussion and brass build as Sam leans out on the precipice.
01:02:05 Sam falls (about 1:23 on the album track ‘The Black Gate is Open’). Frodo runs down after him, and two Haradrim come over to investigate. As shots of Frodo and Sam and the two guards are interchanged, the score alternates between (i) violin/viola suggestions of the Ring theme that suggest the delicacy of Frodo and Sam’s position; and (ii) a bass-driven percussive phrase that emphasizes the danger posed by the Haradrim soldiers. The score moves back and forth as the soldiers close in…
01:03:00 …fading out on the light string motif (i) as the soldiers turn away.

This cue of more than four minutes cannot be considered in isolation, but as part of a double-cue with the following track. The new scene with Gandalf and Aragorn offers interesting new thematic material that hopefully more will be heard of in the third film. The transition from the new scene to the Black Gate sequence is well handled, using Sam as the thematic link between the end of the first scene and the start of the second. In what follows we get a fascinating development of the Mordor thematic material as the Gate is revealed and opened. The last minute or so of the cue is missing from the album track ‘The Black Gate is Open’, which is a shame as it builds the suspense of Frodo and Sam’s dilemma well by alternating phrases.

26c. Another Way 2:07 **

01:03:08 The urgent string/ percussive material heard as the Gate opened returns as Frodo and Sam prepare to enter the Gate.
01:03:32 Just as the hobbits prepare to run forward and enter the Gate, Gollum grabs them from behind and pulls them back. This passage and the following ones appear in the album track ‘The Black Gate is Open’. High strings play as he begs them not to go, leading to a lush variation on the Ring theme as Gollum describes Sauron’s desire to find the Ring. String underscore plays for most of the following minute.
01:04:13 Strings quickly play a descending motif as the Gate begins to close. Gollum speaks of ‘another way’ into Mordor and is interrogated about it.
01:04:48 Horns rise in affirmation as Frodo says that Gollum has been true to his word.
01:05:08 More sombre material as Frodo and Sam openly disagree about trusting Gollum, the last notes hanging as the Gate closes…
01:05:15 …and the cue ends.

The second half of a nearly seven-minute cue, this cue is largely released in the album cue ‘The Black Gate is Open’. The only unreleased portion of the cue is the opening 24 second piece. Notable in this piece is the dramatic statement for strings of the Ring theme as Gollum begs the hobbits to consider another way into Mordor. Also worth noting is the way Shore continues to underscore the shifting loyalty dynamics among the three travellers. Smeagol’s pleading is scored sympathetically, and a noble horn phrase complement’s Frodo’s affirmation of him, while more ominous horn textures underscore Frodo and Sam’s disagreement. Against this character-motivated musical backdrop, the action of the closing Gate (taking with it the hobbits’ opportunity to enter Mordor by this route) is depicted by a descending string motif that runs from 01:04:13 to 01:04:48.

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but it's not complete.>>

<<Originally posted by Magpie:
re: a cue by cue for CR-FOTR. I don't think one's been done to the extent of previous fan cue by cues. But the Annotated Score of the FOTR (written by Doug) does offer a track by track discussion of the music, themes and singing. Have you looked at that?

http://www.lordoftherings-soundtrack.com/]http://www.lordoftherings-soundtrack.com/ >>

Thanks to Matthijs for pointing us in the SMME direction again... AND:
Let us all hope (ahem! hint! hint!) that our musicologist in residence D.A. will indeed be including in his upcoming book on LOTR Music a (long!) appendix giving us the DEFINITIVELY detailed time stamps and the cue-by-cue by-play (so to speak) for us insatiable fans (of Shore and Adams!)

Timdalf

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Originally posted by Matthijs:
I found (a cue by cue analysis) from CR FOTR made on this site: (link to SMME discussion) but it's not complete.

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It's just amazing how much interesting things Doug Adams is posting here. Even in Belgium (where I'm living) people interested in soundtracks know your name!

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Watch out, Howard Shore, soon the name of Doug Adams shall become better known amongst thy followers than thy own!

Yep, that's and "old hat" for me, gkgyver. I pick up on tracked music quick (because I hate it so much ).

I have to say that my perspective on FotR has changed so much over the past few years. First, I heard it in the theatre and probably paid no attention to it (but I heard it nonetheless). Then, after TTT came out, a few months later I received the OSTs for FoTR and TTT. I really enjoyed the Fellowship and Shire material, and Enya's songs (May It Be is still my favorite LoTR song), but, I didn't really care for much else. After a while, Isengard "became cool" as well as the Moria material and others. The choral music was fine at the time.

A while later, I had the extended ed. dvds for FoTR and TTT. That's when I really "fell in love" with it. All of the music was magnificent and wonderful! The choral music began to be as good as (or better than) the orchestral music. Themes became EXTREMELY important to me. I just had to analyze it over and over; listen to it over and over; learn some things from others on the internet.

If we're talking about themes,than i wonder what theme is played during the arrival of Aragorn at Helm's Deep(when he's on the hilltop)?It sound just a bit rohanish,but i'm not sure.Could that be a TTT Aragorn theme?

P.S.:I wonder if the cast members from FOTR:CR ever bought/listened those records?

Now about the running time again; in the special LOTR issue of Music From The Movies, there are specific numbers mentioned:

Length of score (TTT): Approximately 240 minutes based on various lengths and cuts of the picture, a part of this will resurface with the extended cut of Two Towers. 180 minutes was produced overall, with 160 minutes in the film.

Length of score (ROTK): Approximately 240 minutes based on various lengths and cuts of the picture, a part of the will resurface with the extended cut for Return of the King. Approximately 180 minutes is in the film.

Length of score (FOTR): 190 minutes, cut down to approximately 180 minutes.

Now according to this, 10 minutes of FOTR aren't on the CR.
Of course I don't know how close these numbers come, or whether they refer to actually recorded/alternate music. 240 minutes for TTT sounds a bit too much, but the "180" is also mentioned in the press release.

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Now according to this, 10 minutes of FOTR aren't on the CR.
Of course I don't know how close these numbers come, or whether they refer to actually recorded/alternate music. 240 minutes for TTT sounds a bit too much, but the "180" is also mentioned in the press release.

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If i'm not wrong HS recorded 12hrs of music for LOTR.That would mean that TTT and ROTK CR should be at least 4h30 minutes in lenght.Maybe we'll not get to hear all the recorded music after all.However the're might be a rarities disc,but it would be A disc;with a maximum of 80 minutes of music.But it will still remain some 7h40 minutes for TTT and ROTK.So that's 444 minutes for each=>unfitted on 3 discs.

I agree. My favorite one is the Fellowship(title 1, chapter 21 1:55:40 on my dvd player). It's mainly just the strings performing the Fellowship theme and there's something plaintive and pure about it that makes it the most beautiful version of that theme to me. I was a little sad when I found out that it wasn't on the CR set. But it is nice to have it on the EE dvd.

I think that RotK has more "(very) high strings" music in the score than in TT and FotR. There's an ascending motive that's all high strings. Is this true, DOUG?

I've thought about something for the past few months...I think there's a connection between 3 themes, and "death" or "fading away" is the connection. The themes are: Minas Tirith(the first 4 notes), Into the West(the first 4 notes), and 'Theoden's Old Age' motive(in TTT) (all 4 notes). What do ya think? DOUG???

One more thing...I just realized (and this might be an "old hat" for some of you) that some of the same text/music is used for 2 choral parts in TT: Right before Gandalf falls in Moria and as he reveals himself as Gandalf the White to possessed Theoden. I'm not sure what the text is, but it sounds something like: ae tah nah. Pretty cool connection, whatever it means. DOUG?

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Originally posted by Cavalier_of_Palahndtüs:
One more thing...I just realized (and this might be an "old hat" for some of you) that some of the same text/music is used for 2 choral parts in TT: Right before Gandalf falls in Moria and as he reveals himself as Gandalf the White to possessed Theoden. I'm not sure what the text is, but it sounds something like: ae tah nah. Pretty cool connection, whatever it means. DOUG?

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I was concerned about what I would do if items in the #2 and #3 category were numerous. I didn't want to put up new material based solely on Doug's work. And if I had to take down a bunch of stuff, there might not be enough information left to make it useful.

What I found was, there were more items in the #1 category than I could have wished for. There were a few themes I didn't have, but they weren't the sort I'd ever planned to cover and I didn't mind that they weren't discussed on my site. My concerns over how much official information to include in my site so that...
1) my work interfaces with official information in a non-confusing way and
2) my work doesn’t become a substitute for official information/products
...are discussed at my site at some length. I hope I’ve been responsible and ethical. I strive to be.

So, I know I faced the possibility that my site might have to come down if my information proved totally useless, but I don't think, (at least at this point) that it is. The CR changed or added, in fact, only a small amount of the information on the site. That great bulk of information there is the result of my and other fans efforts. I think it functions as a supplement (and, at times, an alternate view), but not as a substitute (I hope) for official/commercial products. I am open to feedback from the community.

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Originally posted by Matthijs:
I was wondering, (perhaps it's already discussed) at the beginning of FOTR CR (after 30 seconds) brass and strings build op to one of the Ring themes. This building up is repeated somethimes further on. I was wondering if this building up has a connection to some of the themes or is it just a building up?

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[Message edited by Beren on 09-20-2006]<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

For all we know......ROTK:CR could be a 5 disc set (with 4 Audio discs).......

....Wouldn't it be great, if HS had been given a script to score, by PJ, that included the real ending of the story, with the big battle back in the Shire......

In actual fact, before the ROTK cinema release had come out (about 6 months prior), I once heard a rumor that they actually shot nine different possible endings....I don't know if this is true or not, but one never knows........

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Originally posted by THX 1138 4eb:
In actual fact, before the ROTK cinema release had come out (about 6 months prior), I once heard a rumor that they actually shot nine different possible endings....I don't know if this is true or not, but one never knows........

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