Oh well, time for a new director to sign on. I vote for Martin Scorsese. He's a great director, and if he is the chosen one, Howard Shore will compose the score for sure.

I’m sorry for my long absence. Between TTT and ROTK some family/personal business came up which took my attention of the boards for a while. From the looks of things, I missed a lot!

I’ll be back for a more thorough update later, but thought I’d offer the following thoughts in the meantime:

1) None of the hubbub regarding The Hobbit has any bearing on the status of ROTK:CR. The Jackson / Newline lawsuit has been brewing for some time, since well before TTT was in production. Neither the Complete Recordings (nor the Music of LOTR book, for that matter) will be touched by any of this.

2) I think that we would do well to remember the Gary Oldman / Harry Potter fuss from earlier this year. Oldman announced to the press that he would not be involved with Harry Potter 5, because contract negotiations were not to his liking. Long story short, check the cast list—Oldman’s in the film. Was it a bargaining measure? Trying to drive up the fan furor? I honestly don’t know. I’m not speaking from any sort of inside information, in either the Potter or Hobbit situations. This is speculation in its purest form, but I think it’s worth bearing in mind right now.

3) Finally, I also think it’s interesting to note while Howard Shore is certainly on good terms with Peter Jackson, he’s also on quite good terms with New Line. None of what happened on LOTR could have happened without the support of music execs such as the indispensable Paul Broucek. I know the studio is perceived as being shellacked with a thick coating of corporate greed right now, but remember that many of these people nurtured Shore’s work through the project and ensured that it was cared for properly in its formative stages. I don’t know all the New Line execs, so I’m not going to say they’re all either this or that… but there are some good guys in there. Like anything else in the world, it’s shades of grey. Anyway, these are nothing more than speculative comments, I’m not hinting any inside info. But one should bear in mind that Shore’s association with these projects was not exclusive to a single filmmaker. I’m not saying that to belittle the frustration that everyone’s feeling, simply to add a little more hope to the mix. Nothing’s done until it’s done.

I’ll be back later, if any one’s up for TTT or ROTK questions.

Best,

Since you may not want to scan through all the previous pages, here's my short list of questions:

I noticed in "The Sons Of The Steward" that the music over Denethor's first appearance (the very first glimpse we get at him) is very similar to the score that plays over his dialogue with Gandalf. Could that be Denethor's theme? Does he have one?
Plus, in the same track I noticed that little Cello motif that plays in Fellowship when Boromir says to Frodo "There are other roads we can take". It plays in TTT when Denethor asks Boromir to go to Rivendell.

Question about tracked ROTK music: when Gandalf confronts the Witch King in Minas Tirith, a triumphant version of the "Fellowship In Rohan" motif plays. I've never noticed or even considered that such a motif existed, but now that I know ... is that part of the score tracked in from TTT (the scene in Helm's Deep, when Gimli jumps into the Uruks' way to protect Aragorn)?

I also noticed that the cello motif I spoke of shares a resemblance with the Minas Tirith theme. It's used only twice, once for Boromir in his crucial scene at the end of FOTR, and once for Denethor in TTT. Maybe it is intentional and is supposed to illustrate by which ill- guided mentality the former glory of Gondor got ruined by drawing a connection to the Minas Tirith theme.

I really think we need to listen to Doug here... Think of this as a typical management/labor dispute... One side threatens this or that, the other responds by calling the press... and so on.

We need to realize this sort of thing happens daily in Hollywood... and as a friend who lives there and has some contacts with the movie world has pointed out: NO ONE burns their bridges in Hollywood: ya never knows who you is goin to be dealing with next month on some project or other!

New Line is trying an old shakedown technique: give us a break or we hire someone else! And PJ said, OK, let's hear what the real people in charge think of that: them what pays the box office!!

This is a negotiation in progress... It is waaaaay too early to assume anything is finalized or anyone is fired!

So let's not get disillusioned or depressed about what at this stage is only rhetoric.

There's big bucks at stake here, so of course there will be some board room door slamming. (Remember the good cop/bad cop hijinks the Weinsteins tried to pull with Peter?)

Hang in there troops, this is just skirmishers feeling out the other side, probing for weak spots...

This is business as usual, and the end result will (I HOPE!) be a better product both for us and a better deal for New Line and PJ & Co...

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/aintnohobbitwithoutPJ/

And that's an excellent idea, NeoVoyager. I wish you luck if you decide to do it.

I don't know if you're tired of the proofreading 'help'. Some tasks have to be considered 'finished'. But if you're looking to correct anything in the Annotated Score of TTT, I found this under the info for Disc 2, Track 11, Arwen's Fate:

"though the opposite is soon shone to be true."

I believe that should be 'shown to be true'.

quote:

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Originally posted by Timdalf:
Further, remember there is a large group of LotR fans who despise The Film for its deviations from Tolkien... Not least among them is the Tolkien Estate itself! So in their eyes all is not so rosy with Wellywood!

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I know there are hardcore purists who didn't like the movies (the REAL hardcore purists didn't even see them!), but I don't know if they truly constitute a "large group." The internet polls I've seen have numbered those who disliked it in the single percentage digits. Of course, one could argue that someone who refused to see the movie, or saw it and hated it, is probably not hanging out on the film fan sites where these polls are inevitably taken. Plus, the numbers would be diluted by voters who never read the books first. Still, I put myself and most of my friends, from very disparate backgrounds, who were longtime Tolkien fans in the purist camp, and we all loved the movies.

As for the Tolkien Estate, CJRT is opposed to film adaptations on principle, as he feels his father's work is unsuitable for cinematic adaption. However, since Dad sold the film rights for the Hobbit and LOTR years ago, CJRT has no control over these movies, and the Estate is officially neutral, neither helping nor hindering the licensed films.

And Doug, thank you for your soothing words. It's good to hear them from someone a little closer to and more familiar with "the system" than we are. This was very upsetting for most of us. I personally felt nauseated when I read PJ's letter, but I realize it may all still work out. I just hate this bumps in the road, though. ;-)

But we better wait and see what comes of this. If there's really a time limit involved, who knows if they can find a "replacement" in time. Or if they cannot still come to arrangements.

Inside Move: Trio spar to squire Shire
New Line, MGM, Jackson tussle over 'Hobbit'
By NICOLE LAPORTE, NICOLE LAPORTE, DAVE MCNARY, DAVE MCNARY

Who's the boss of "The Hobbit"?

This question has been growing more heated in recent weeks as the principal parties involved in the film -- New Line, MGM and director Peter Jackson -- have been duking it out, each staking their claim as a key player in "The Hobbit" along with a prequel to "The Lord of the Rings."

Behind the jostling is the fact that while New Line owns the rights to produce the pic, MGM owns the distribution rights and Jackson is the creative force behind the franchise's staggering success.

In the most recent flurry of events, Peter Jackson and producing partner Fran Walsh posted a letter Sunday night on the "LOTR" fan site Theonering.net saying that New Line told them last week that it was going to make "The Hobbit" without their services.

The letter also reiterated in detail Jackson's stance on "The Hobbit" -- that he is not willing to have a serious conversation about directing the film until his ongoing lawsuit with New Line over what he considers improper accounting practices over "LOTR" profits is settled.

New Line's given reason for proceeding sans Jackson is that the studio's rights to the pic are about to expire, and seeing as the lawsuit with Jackson isn't moving ahead, well, the message was that New Line is.

All of this has riled MGM, which in recent weeks has been openly touting the fact that the newly revamped studio is serious about making "The Hobbit" -- with Jackson.

An MGM spokesman said that "the matter of Peter Jackson directing 'The Hobbit' films is far from closed."

Though New Line no-commented inquiries about Jackson's statement, the mini-major's move is a loud statement to both MGM and Jackson that the studio is in the driver's seat when it comes to "The Hobbit."

Jackson noted in his letter that New Line exec Mark Ordesky, who shepherded the "Rings" trilogy, explained that New Line is ditching Jackson because it has a "limited time option" on the film rights obtained from Saul Zaentz.

>>>New Line's given reason for proceeding sans Jackson is that the studio's rights to the pic are about to expire, and seeing as the lawsuit with Jackson isn't moving ahead, well, the message was that New Line is.<<<

Aha! Well, now this makes more sense! New Line and Jackson either need to resolve their money squabble... and get on with it! Somebody needs to lock their accountants in a room without food or water!

Or, maybe Jackson is stalling in order to get away from New Line and produce it himself or find a more suitable studio or producer...

Personally, the major reason I want to see the same creative team do "The Hobbit" is to maintain consistency with LotR... This was a major concern of Tolkien's and for good reason: it is essential to making Middle-earth convincing. For that to be achieved New Line is not, I would think, all that essential...

>>>I know there are hardcore purists who didn't like the movies (the REAL hardcore purists didn't even see them!), but I don't know if they truly constitute a "large group."<<<

OK, perhaps I should have said "an important group"... There are some elements in the film that I too find prompt "the cringe factor" and there are some things that I regret were left out...

But overall, I was relieved to see and hear that much was not changed. And I think I am far from alone in both reactions... so maybe we (who find some things regrettable but by and large appreciate the achievement) form not "a large group" in box office terms, but "a significant group" and larger than that which rejected The Film totally.

It's too bad about the legal wrangling between Jackson and New Line but I don't really see New Line as The Bad Guys. Like Doug stated this kind of wrangling isn't uncommon and sometimes people in Hollywood patch up their differences at a later date to work together again.

I suppose another director at the helm would give the LOTR world a fresh new perspective but that depends on whether the new director is a fan of the work. It would be tragic if New Line proceeded with a director who has never read the books or is only aquainted with the work through the Jackson films. The reason why Jackson was so successful - regardless of whether some purists liked his vision or not - was that he, Fran and Phillipa are fans and have a long time aquaintance with Tolkien's work. Their knowledge informed a vision that worked for the stories. A new director helming these films could have a very different vision and therefore the look and feel of these new films would be very different but that would be acceptable to me if it is apparent that this new director has more than a mere passing aquaintance with Tolkien's work. Otherwise New Line could be jumping into something disastrous and they would have only themselves to blame.

As far as MGM studios, I think that Peter Jackson should stay far away! Let us remember that if it were left up to MGM there would only be one LOTR film, (remember Ralph Bakshi's studio problems everyone?) Arwen would be fighting as a warrior at Helms Deep and there would be all sorts of other travesties unfolding on the screen. It makes one shudder to think what it could have been if New Line executives didn't have the vision that they did. Then the ultra-purists would REALLY have something to hate!

Well, I've quite a bit to say, but I'll just say one thing right now. It's my ONE complaint...(honestly, I have a few other complaints, but they're so small [or tincy-wincy] that I don't care, and I know that you don't want to read about them). I just wanna get this out of my system.

The complaint: disc 2, track 8 - The Wolves of Isengard.......the wonderful choral part that we hear on the OST is not there, except the tail end of it.......that's it! Now, I'd like to know why Shore chose to leave it out. (Do you know, or will you ask him...for me? For us...yes, I meant for us...precious )I think I'd prefer hearing both the choral and fiddle parts together. (Of course, the other choral part with Isengard is awesome!) It just sounds...naked without it. Also, I'd really like to know what the text is (the missing choral piece, not the Isengard/choral piece). It's obviously in Old English, but I'd like to see the Old English and English translation. And, I really wonder why I like it so much...? I can't figure it out. How did he write it, and part-write it? (Will you please tell me?) To me, it has an "open" and "ethereal" quality, and I just love it! I really think there's something different about it that separates it from all the other choral pieces in the entire trilogy. Of course, I'm realizing that all of the Old English choral moments are absolutely spectacular!!! (Maybe I'll learn Old English )

I love the "Gandalf the White in Nature" rendition at the end!!! That, for the moment, is my favorite choral piece in the trilogy! And, (hah hah hah) I freaked out when I heard the Nature music (when Isengard is attacked by the Ents) go to Frodo and the Ringwraith before going back to the Nature music. I thought Shore had cut it out! I was about to cry, but then it came back.....whew. Silly me.

First comment, after Fellowship and Two Towers, when I hear the release date for King I am going to mentally add two weeks to that release date in my head, and only think of that date, because I've learned my lesson. There's no way I'll be getting King until two weeks after the release date, no matter how early I preorder it or special order it. That's just the nature of these releases, at least for me.

As for the music. I must say my primary reaction is utter surprise. I was expecting a lot more Rohan music, and had no idea how much the original soundtrack misleads what Shore actually did with this film. The original soundtrack, to slightly exaggerate, seems like it has every Rohirrim note on it, and none of the other stuff, and wow is the 'other stuff' ever amazing.

The big thing for me is how human this score is in contrast to Fellowship, and by human I mean 'world of men'. There is a humanity in contrast to the elven/dwarvish/ hobbit/orcish music that is all but absent in Fellowship, but dominates what seems like over two-thirds of the score here. I'm not even talking about the Rohirrim themes, but rather the "filler music" (which is probably thematically rich, and I'm simply new to the themes) which has a grounding, a solidness, in the world of men that the ethereal elvish music is never able to grasp. In fact, I was struck by how much Fellowship is devoted to elven music and culture.

My first listen was a rather profound experience. As with Fellowship, I turned off my phone, and the lights in my suite, turned up my music, and listened non-stop. After the first half-hour or so, when Treebeard enters, the humanity of the score starts to really come out for me, though it took me an hour or so to realize this. I began to feel increasingly separate from the melody-rich other-worldness of Fellowship's themes, and drawn deeper and deeper into this highly complex and (upon my first listen at least) less melodic work. I don't know where in my brain it came from, but I began to feel strongly about the weakness of men, and the strengths of men, and how they are intertwined. I know Tolkien was very interested in this subject, and created his concept of the elves as such a contrast to humanity's weakness and potential, but I really felt a love for humankind, in all its horrible history and present troubles, during the middle section of this score. While Fellowship seems to me a score which passes effortlessly between elegant melodies, Towers has a stockiness, a woodiness, that grounds it in the earth and out of the distant trees and hills of the elves and, for me, even the hobbits, whose music shares more with the elves, I think, than the music of men (even if Tolkien himself *might* have meant otherwise).

I even came to 'resent' the 'intrusion' of 'Fellowship themes', including even the Fellowship theme itself, in this new music which at present has little thematic content in my ears (though I know the truth is otherwise). At the end, beginning with the Last March of the Ents to the end, I was in the presence of perfection as Shore capped off this emotional journey in such a way I could never find the words to describe. Unlike the movie, which leaves you wanting closure and dying to see King, the score has a remarkable closure to it that I was absolutely not expecting. For me, the re-entry of the Hobbit music at the end *was* welcome, and I was struck with the feeling of children commenting on the state of the world of men and what they have done and do to each other. I try not to underline the Hobbit-as-children metaphor in Tolkien's work, but during the conclusion to the score I strongly felt it.

Well done Doug on your book and annotated score

Has anybody here ordered by amazon.de?

I´ve preordered more than a month ago and it hasn´t been sent yet. The probable sending (!) date still says November 20.

quote:

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Originally posted by rjt:
Hi there!

Has anybody here ordered by amazon.de?

I´ve preordered more than a month ago and it hasn´t been sent yet. The probable sending (!) date still says November 20.

Anybody got the same problem?

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I've preordered it from the uk site, no problems there It was estimated 22-24 novembre and I got it at 22nd

quote:

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Originally posted by Oboe-man:
I've preordered it from the uk site, no problems there It was estimated 22-24 novembre and I got it at 22nd

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Happy Thanksgiving to those of you in the US. And happy Thursday, November 23 to the rest!

>>>I noticed in "The Sons Of The Steward" that the music over Denethor's first appearance (the very first glimpse we get at him) is very similar to the score that plays over his dialogue with Gandalf. Could that be Denethor's theme? Does he have one?>>>

No, no specific connection here, I’m afraid. Shore uses some of the same harmonic devices in the quote of the History of the Ring theme in the TT scene as he does in ROTK when Denethor begins to lose his temper, but there’s no specific leitmotif… just a stylistic fingerprint.

Denethor does not have a personal theme, but there is *some* material associated with him. You’ll see that soon-ish…

>>>Plus, in the same track I noticed that little Cello motif that plays in Fellowship when Boromir says to Frodo "There are other roads we can take". It plays in TTT when Denethor asks Boromir to go to Rivendell.>>>

>>>I also noticed that the cello motif I spoke of shares a resemblance with the Minas Tirith theme. It's used only twice, once for Boromir in his crucial scene at the end of FOTR, and once for Denethor in TTT. Maybe it is intentional and is supposed to illustrate by which ill- guided mentality the former glory of Gondor got ruined by drawing a connection to the Minas Tirith theme.>>>

These are very strong thoughts, and absolutely interesting, but if you look at the specific material in question, I think you’ll see that the connection isn’t really there:

FOTR: F C Bb f (eb)

TTT: G F C G

I think you could make the case that you can see Shore processing his sound for the music of Men in these two scenes, but I don’t think you could say that this is a specific, purposeful corruption of Gondor (or Minas Tirith) material. The rising fifth certainly would lead one towards Gondor, but remember that Éowyn begins with a fifth as well, so it’s not a uniquely Gondorian device.

>>>Question about tracked ROTK music: when Gandalf confronts the Witch King in Minas Tirith, a triumphant version of the "Fellowship In Rohan" motif plays. I've never noticed or even considered that such a motif existed, but now that I know ... is that part of the score tracked in from TTT (the scene in Helm's Deep, when Gimli jumps into the Uruks' way to protect Aragorn)?>>>

That’s not tracked in this case… and if you listen very carefully, you’ll find that this is actually a twist on the Realm of Gondor, not The Fellowship in Rohan. The Fellowship in Rohan needs that triplet figure at the end to be complete, since really that’s the part of the theme that references the Rohan style.

Although, on the other hand, it sure would make sense to have the Fellowship in Rohan quoted here wouldn’t it, considering what happens next!

>>>I really think we need to listen to Doug here... Think of this as a typical management/labor dispute... One side threatens this or that, the other responds by calling the press... and so on.>>>

Well, as I say, I’m being speculative here, nothing more nothing less. I honestly don’t have inside information on this. Everyone knew that the lawsuit was in place, and that it stood to make some waves when the topic of The Hobbit was finally approached, but I don’t think anyone figured on MGM and New Line getting together so quickly. So there was always the though that maybe the suit would be finished by that time. Always in motion is the future!

Just for fun, however, I will offer one last speculation… the stage is certainly well set at this point for MGM to swoop in as the benevolent arbiter, is it not? They’re the only one with no grievances on either side of the dispute, so they’re in a nice spot to resolve things while allowing both New Line and Jackson’s camp to show their strong sides. Again, I honestly don’t know. But we shall see.

>>>If that's correct, Timdalf, then we must pressure New Line into bringing PJ back. If they see that their decision doesn't cause a violent reaction among LOTR fans, they will go through with it. I suggest we start a petition.>>>

As indicated in other posts, I think theonering.net has already begun a large fan-based campaign. I’d check with them, before unintentionally starting a splinter faction.

>>>I don't know if you're tired of the proofreading 'help'. Some tasks have to be considered 'finished'. But if you're looking to correct anything in the Annotated Score of TTT, I found this under the info for Disc 2, Track 11, Arwen's Fate:>>>

We will be doing a bit of cleaning on all the Annotated Score PDFs when we build ROTK’s. The boo-boos will be addressed at that time, thankfully.

>>>Great to have you back, Doug! I hope everything's fine with your family...and, yes, you did miss a lot!>>>

It’s been a stressful month, I’ll say that much without digging too deep into my own dirty laundry. But, we’re all fine, and moving ahead.

>>>The complaint: disc 2, track 8 - The Wolves of Isengard.......the wonderful choral part that we hear on the OST is not there, except the tail end of it.......that's it! Now, I'd like to know why Shore chose to leave it out. (Do you know, or will you ask him...for me? For us...yes, I meant for us...precious )I think I'd prefer hearing both the choral and fiddle parts together. (Of course, the other choral part with Isengard is awesome!) It just sounds...naked without it. Also, I'd really like to know what the text is (the missing choral piece, not the Isengard/choral piece). It's obviously in Old English, but I'd like to see the Old English and English translation. And, I really wonder why I like it so much...? I can't figure it out. How did he write it, and part-write it? (Will you please tell me?) To me, it has an "open" and "ethereal" quality, and I just love it! I really think there's something different about it that separates it from all the other choral pieces in the entire trilogy. Of course, I'm realizing that all of the Old English choral moments are absolutely spectacular!!! (Maybe I'll learn Old English )>>>

Well, this choice is consistent with (most of) the others in the boxed sets… if the OST presented something different than the film version, then the CR presents the film version. Therefore, on the CR you first hear the fiddle, then the chorus. The text is “The Call,” which is translated in the Annotated Score.

How did Shore write it? Part of what gives this writing such a unique sound is that Shore doesn’t limit himself strictly to SATB writing… he loves to divide the parts and create very thick, unusual harmonies… often somewhat pan-diatonic in nature. It’s very much like his approach to string writing.

>>>The choir portion of the Nazgul Attack (right before Theoden Rides Forth begins) was the biggest moment for me, and I'm not sure if it's new but I think it's a remix of music also on the original soundtrack. If it is, it's one hell of a remix. That choir portion practically knocked my socks off. Easily my favorite part of the entire score. Wow.>>>

Théoden Rides Forth on the OST uses the White Rider (in Nature) theme that’s heard when Gandalf appears in Fangorn. The WR(in) theme heard for Théoden’s ride on the CR (and in the film) is a different performance altogether, not a remix of the earlier performance.

>>>Well done Doug on your book and annotated score>>>

Thanks! We’ve got a couple of big meetings on the real book in December, and ROTK is now well under way.

But for today, it’s turkey and relaxation. Take care all!

-Doug

quote:

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Théoden Rides Forth on the OST uses the White Rider (in Nature) theme that’s heard when Gandalf appears in Fangorn.

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And there's the alternate choral piece for the balrog fight in the EE credits, too. Shore must have been rather busy writing for that part of the film...

And in the spirit of the holiday, I'm thankful for your ongoing posts here.

[Message edited by TheTennisBallKid on 11-23-2006]

Lord have mercy!

ANYWAY -

Gorbag, I've wondered at that as well. It would seem that that particular theme should have a specific name because each time you hear it, it signals an important understanding that Frodo and Sam come to about their journey, or at least it seems that way to me. There's a different variation on it in FOTR and TTT. I've always thought that it should come full circle at the end of the ROTK OST but you don't hear it and I miss it.

quote:

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I love the music (does it have a name?) when Frodo ponders on the shore and gets into the boat at Parth Galen in FOTR and over Sam's speech in TTT, and so I was very disappointed not to hear it near the end of ROTK as I was practically expecting it at some point.

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Well, in fact it does play at the Grey Havens. You mean the first six chords of The Breaking Of The Fellowship, don't you?

quote:

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>I love the music (does it have a name?) when Frodo ponders on the shore and gets into the boat at Parth Galen in FOTR and over Sam's speech in TTT, and so I was very disappointed not to hear it near the end of ROTK as I was practically expecting it at some point.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, in fact it does play at the Grey Havens. You mean the first six chords of The Breaking Of The Fellowship, don't you?

Thanksgiving, huh? I wish we had Turkey day in Europe ... you're having turkey and I have to settle for some crummy bread.

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>>>We will be doing a bit of cleaning on all the Annotated Score PDFs when we build ROTK’s. The boo-boos will be addressed at that time, thankfully.

-Doug<<<

I do hope that does not mean we hasty hobbitious types will have to wait until next Nov or Dec!!! Barruum!

After all, Doug, a typo to us orthographic-maniacs is like a horn player hitting a LOUD wrong note to you more musical types... It verily hoits da eyeses!!

I immediately print out the (so-called) Annotated Score to cart along with me in my sonic travels.

But knowing nothing about how much time and effort goes into putting something up on the web in a pdf format... I will say no more. ;-) Not to mention that you have more important things on the horizon which we all too hasty ones already are clammoring for because the FotR and TTT were so magnificently produced: namely the RotK-CR!!

One other quibble: Could you change the name of one theme: "The Heroics of Aragorn" sounds sorta like "antics", or "theatrics" to my ear. My dictionary (Random House Webster's Collegiate) defines the word primarily as "flamboyant or extravagant language, sentiment or behavior intended to seem heroic". Wouldn't "heroism of" or "heroic deeds of" be better? Although there is "politics" or "physics" or "acoustics" or "acrobatics"... So maybe I am being too picky?

Timdalf

quote:

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Originally posted by Magpie:
and... for what it's worth:
MGM/UA: CEO Harry E. Sloan and COO Rick Sands, 10250 Constellation Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90067-6421

New Line Co-Chairmen and Co-CEOs Robert K. Shaye and Michael Lynne at 888 7th Ave., Fl. 19, New York, NY 10106
[/B]

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What are you suggesting? Anthrax (just kidding) or a lot of digital autographs? I think they don't even read letters from individuals..

Actually, the CR has the version of the piece that was used in the film… not the longer unused version that was heard on the OST.

Remember, because of the nature of LOTR’s recording process, there’s some sort of alternate version of almost *everything*… whether it’s compositionally different, or simply a different performance. It was extremely rare that there would be one take, and it was in the bag signed, sealed, delivered. In fact it was rare enough that we actually took the time to note once such instance in the TT Annotated. So nine time out of ten, if you’re noticing something slightly different, this is the reason. Shore may have been composing to a cut of the film that only existed for 2 days in August of that year.

Each score in LOTR recorded for about 6 weeks… which is pretty amazing when you compare that to the 5 or so days many major films/scores are allowed. But during this time the film was constantly in flux to some degree, so score adjustments were a pretty common order of the day. As we’ve all noted before, the CRs are meant to tell a story so, working towards that goal, decisions have to be made. What best relates this music to the story we know? What best relates it to its film counterpart? What works best musically?

The Gandalf the White (in Nature) music heard on the OST matched a different cut of the film, but the performance on the CR was the one that was ultimately used. It didn’t go into the Balrog fight, Gandalf simply took a bit longer to say hello.

>>>And there's the alternate choral piece for the balrog fight in the EE credits, too. Shore must have been rather busy writing for that part of the film...>>>

He was at that!

>>>And in the spirit of the holiday, I'm thankful for your ongoing posts here.>>>

Thanks, I’m glad you guys have so many insightful questions!

>>>I love the music (does it have a name?) when Frodo ponders on the shore and gets into the boat at Parth Galen in FOTR and over Sam's speech in TTT, and so I was very disappointed not to hear it near the end of ROTK as I was practically expecting it at some point. Now we all know that an Epilogue was (at least partly) filmed for ROTK, and I'm sure we'd all very much like to have seen it. My question is, did Mr Shore ever compose any music for this scene, or at least plan to, and would it have been this? Only I think its the perfect blend of bitter-sweet and would be perfect for such a scene. Or if not, did Howard plan to use it for any scene in ROTK and eventually scrap it? Thanks.>>>

This is “A Hobbit’s Understanding,” and the theme relates to the hobbits’ simple and pure world view. (It’s really a development of the Shire material.) In the score it’s used a gentle driving force… it’s what urges the hobbits to carry on with their quest.

In ROTK, the hobbits complete their quest, and so this music which helped them to carry on in the face of adversity does not appear. ROTK’s end is about serenity and finality, so the music is quite different here. This is the one time in the story that Frodo cannot continue… so it’s a different type of bittersweet.

>>>Well, in fact it does play at the Grey Havens. You mean the first six chords of The Breaking Of The Fellowship, don't you?>>>

Well, you do get to hear a bit of Gandalf’s Farewells, but that can all be examined later!

>>>But knowing nothing about how much time and effort goes into putting something up on the web in a pdf format... I will say no more. ;-) Not to mention that you have more important things on the horizon which we all too hasty ones already are clammoring for because the FotR and TTT were so magnificently produced: namely the RotK-CR!!

One other quibble: Could you change the name of one theme: "The Heroics of Aragorn" sounds sorta like "antics", or "theatrics" to my ear. My dictionary (Random House Webster's Collegiate) defines the word primarily as "flamboyant or extravagant language, sentiment or behavior intended to seem heroic". Wouldn't "heroism of" or "heroic deeds of" be better? Although there is "politics" or "physics" or "acoustics" or "acrobatics"... So maybe I am being too picky?>>>

Looks like a proper fit to me:

Heroics

–adjective
1. Also, heroical. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a hero or heroine.
2. suitable to the character of a hero in size or concept; daring; noble: a heroic ambition.
3. having or displaying the character or attributes of a hero; extraordinarily bold, altruistic, determined, etc.: a heroic explorer.
4. having or involving recourse to boldness, daring, or extreme measures: Heroic measures were taken to save his life.
5. dealing with or describing the deeds, attributes, etc., of heroes, as in literature.
6. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the heroes of antiquity: heroic mythology.
7. used in heroic poetry. Compare heroic verse.
8. resembling heroic poetry in language or style; grandiloquent.
9. (of style or language) lofty; extravagant; grand.
10. larger than life-size: a statue of heroic proportions.

The name “The Heroics of Aragorn” is actually an inside reference for me as well… although it’s possible some others may have spotted it. Either way, it’s a permanent resident.

Oh, and “clamoring” only has one M in it.

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Originally posted by Timdalf:

I immediately print out the (so-called) Annotated Score to cart along with me in my sonic travels.

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Well, you do get to hear a bit of Gandalf’s Farewells, but that can all be examined later!

-Doug

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Ah that wouldn't by any chance have anything to do with the cut scene when Gandalf kisses Pippin on the forehead amongst other things would it?

EDIT: Actually, I just noticed you didn't actually say "a bit MORE of.....". Did you mean to or am I just reading into something that isn't there? (:

[Message edited by Gorbag on 11-24-2006]