NeoVoyager, I too have printed out all the Annotated Score pages. I was worried about the ink too, but it didn't end up being that bad. The only way to get rid of the background would be to copy and paste the text into another document (because the PDF is not editable), but then you'd have to redo all the layout yourself.

First is a Fellowship question. I've been trying to learn all the different themes, using the starting times you listed in the liner notes:

1-02 The Shire
0:58 The Hobbit Two-Step Figure accompaniment
1:16 The Hobbit Skip Beat accompaniment

Now, I may just be getting confused, but doesn't the Skip Beat come in at 1:05 too? As far as I can understand, the Skip Beat is used as a sort of ending for the first two runs of the Two-Step Figure. Is this right?

I get very confused with all the Shire accompaniments, and the Mordor Skip Beat.

Second question: Reading through all the new Two Towers themes, a question did pop into my mind...

You mentioned on the podcast that you wouldn't reveal the names of Return of the King themes yet, which led me to wondering: do you come up with the names for the themes, or were they already set by Howard Shore? Do you know if he worked out names for each theme, or was he content just with a general association with the subject for each theme?

EDIT: Actually, I just noticed you didn't actually say "a bit MORE of.....". Did you mean to or am I just reading into something that isn't there? (:>>>

Heh, no I wasn’t dropping any hints there. “More” was not an intended resident of that sentence, sorry!

>>>Doug, is there an e-mail address where we could send Annotated Score corrections to, or are you fine with us posting them here? Since you've mentioned that they will all be corrected eventually, the avid (or should I say habitual?) proofreaders among us will be more than happy to root out all of those irksome errors for you.>>>

Well, that’s very generous, but just for the sake of clarity, we’re not soliciting for proofreaders at this time. Your posted findings are, of course, more than welcome… but right now we’re much more in ROTK liners mode than Annotated fix-up mode. In fact, draft one of the ROTK liners will be sent off in the not too distant future.

>>> The print-outs with the background intact do look really nice, though. At this point I'm very happy that I decided to go ahead and print, because it's much easier to read along while listening if you have a print-out.>>>

You should also be aware that all the Annotated material (expanded somewhat) will be a part of the full book, so if you’re hesitant to punish your ink cartridges so relentlessly, you can also wait a bit. I don’t know that the formatting will be absolutely identical, but I don’t imagine that’ll be to upsetting to anyone.

>>>1-02 The Shire
0:58 The Hobbit Two-Step Figure accompaniment
1:16 The Hobbit Skip Beat accompaniment

Now, I may just be getting confused, but doesn't the Skip Beat come in at 1:05 too? As far as I can understand, the Skip Beat is used as a sort of ending for the first two runs of the Two-Step Figure. Is this right?>>>

You’ve got the right idea. Occasionally we had to make choices about what would best represent the first statement of an idea. After all, you can hear the down and back up shape in the orchestra as early as the Prologue, but at what point does that start to qualify as the Fellowship theme?

The 1:05 statement in the bassoon / mid strings is isolated, but the 1:16 statement moves into a line behind the melody, which is generally where the Skip Beat takes up residence. So we therefore felt that the 1:16 was a truer introduction of this material.

>>>I get very confused with all the Shire accompaniments, and the Mordor Skip Beat.>>>

The three notes of the Hobbit Skip Beat generally end where they began. Up and back, up and back. The Mordor Skip Beat climbs the scale much more aggressively. Always rising.

>>>You mentioned on the podcast that you wouldn't reveal the names of Return of the King themes yet, which led me to wondering: do you come up with the names for the themes, or were they already set by Howard Shore? Do you know if he worked out names for each theme, or was he content just with a general association with the subject for each theme?

Going by the discussion of the Heroics of Aragorn theme, it sounds like you made up all the titles yourself. (In which case I'd like to say good job so far! )>>>

Thanks! By and large, the theme titles come from me, but certainly through discussion with Howard. Some of the early theme names came directly from Howard – the Ring themes, for example.

But I’m not doing any of this in a vacuum. I have hundreds and hundreds of pages of notes from Alan Frey (coordination supervisor), Sue Sinclair (album coordinator), and of course Howard, so there’s a great deal of molding going on over the months of preparation.

You couldn’t ask for a better group to work with!

I'm currently trying to assemble all of Doug's postings here that are fit to do so (lengthy posts or such including the questions of others), and so far -about one-third through the older thread- MS Word counts 17 pages.

Doug, if you're ever in need of an additional chapter or two for your book, let me know.

"Fulminating" indeed!

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I'm currently trying to assemble all of Doug's postings here that are fit to do so (lengthy posts or such including the questions of others), and so far -about one-third through the older thread- MS Word counts 17 pages.

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My email's in my profile, if you want it.

Oh, and I’m pushing for hardcover on the book, but we shall see...

Budget meetings begin next month... Of course if it comes down to "We can include multimedia content, or you can have a hardcover," I'll have to make the obvious choice... but we'll hope that that's not an issue. This is all very embryonic at the moment, but it's very exciting for the very same reason.

It's going to be a busy year with this and ROTK overlapping! Of course, I'll do my best to keep you all updated. Unless I collapse of fatigue first! (Sorry, I only make such pessimistic and dramatic statements well after midnight… )

I predict this book will be well read and well referenced over time. The best design and visual appeal in the world won't do us any good if it's hard to access the material in it or it falls apart easily. (Which, thank goodness... doesn't happen so much anymore.)

I’ve done a handful over the years. I honestly don’t remember which FSM titles I added notes to at this point… In fact, I don’t even remember doing Rio Conchos, but I’ll happily take your word for it! I know I also did 100 Riffles (Goldsmith), Prince Valliant (Waxman) and All About Eve (Newman), because I remember those being large projects at the time.

I did a number of titles for Rykodisc in the mid 90s. These were great because I got to speak with a number of people I may not have otherwise had an opportunity to interview. I did In the Heat of the Night / They Call Me Mr. Tibbs! for Quincy Jones and Alice’s Restaurant for Arlo Guthrie… also did Across 100th Street, which Quentin Tarantino must have picked up, because it appeared in Jackie Brown immediately thereafter. (I was in grad school and living at home during this time by the way. Quincy Jones called while I was in classes so my mom got the call. He didn’t have a secretary or assistant make the call, he just picked up and dialed unannounced. My mom was of course stunned to hear, “Hi, this is Quincy Jones, is Doug there?” After she stammered for a while she managed to say, “I’m sorry, I’m not used to talking to famous people.” Quincy paused for a sec and replied, “Well, I could call back later…”)

Um… I did Rush Hour for Lalo Schifrin because I happened to be at the session when Bret Ratner called out, “Hey, we should do a score album!” I did the Arabesque release, Reel Life, which featured concert works by film composers, including Howard Shore. I just did The Nativity Story for Mychael Danna last month… I know I’m leaving things out, but these are what spring to mind at the moment.

But as LOTR is to average film scores, so are these liner notes to average liner notes… meaning, that they’re infinitely more involved and infinitely more rewarding. It’s going to be difficult finding a follow-up project that offers anything near what LOTR has provided…

But there are a couple of amazing ideas scattered across the table right now, so we’ll see…

>>>If I had to choose, I would choose the multimedia content. But if it's paperback, as a consumer, I would hope you consider the binding and how well it will open. Like I said, most larger paperbacks (that is a larger face size of page... not thickness) will do fairly well, but there is a binding called 'lay flat' binding. I don't know what the advantages and disadvantages are for this type of binding... but I do know there are options and this consumer is weighing in on ease of opening when it's being considered.

I predict this book will be well read and well referenced over time. The best design and visual appeal in the world won't do us any good if it's hard to access the material in it or it falls apart easily. (Which, thank goodness... doesn't happen so much anymore.)

And, I think you should run a fan club scroll of names at the end of all your mates here.>>>

Well, the multimedia versus hardcover is purely a rhetorical what-if… I’m just trying to steel myself for a decision making process that I’m sure we’ll have to traverse. It’s a funny project, because it’s half-way between entertainment and academia. Now that’s sort of its appeal, I think but it creates a situation where content and presentation are nearly on an even plain. I mean, Dickens’ language is just as brilliant and satisfying in the well-used, mashed up volumes on my shelves at it is in the pristine new printings. But here, the physical book has to be accessible in just the right way, or nothing inside makes any difference. (I don’t, by the way, have the temerity to attempt comparing any of what I’m doing to Dickens… It’s Christmastime and he spring to mind as an author with an indestructible sense of language.)

Anyway, coupling the physical needs of this book with the legal realities of What Can We License? What Can The Publishers Afford? Who Will Create This Graphic? This Page of Score? The Layout?... and you can see that it’s a demanding beast!

Oh yeah, and then I have to parasitically attach myself to one of the Twentieth Century’s great works of literature one of the Twenty-first Century’s great works of music, so there’s certainly an element of fate staring you in the eyes and challenging, “Ok smart guy, drop the ball, I dare you! Be the weak link!”

And with that said… I think I’d better get some writing done.

>>>How did you do that? I would love to have hard copies, but I am afraid of using tremendous $$$ in ink to print the background texture. Did you somehow remove it??<<<

No, half the fun is having it as is, with all the HEROICS of all the art work behind the HEROICS of the commentaries!! ;-)

It doesn't really use that much ink in the end... and it looks sooo nifty, my preshuss. It's worth it. So I agree with Thorf. And the stunning artwork keeps us claMoring for more!! (Got me on that one DA!!)

>>>I'm currently trying to assemble all of Doug's postings here that are fit to do so (lengthy posts or such including the questions of others), and so far -about one-third through the older thread- MS Word counts 17 pages.<<<

CK and TBK, me three!! I have all of the CR Wisdom and Wit of Mr. Doug from these threads also copied out in a separate file... and it comes to 68 (!) pages (so far!!!) in 10 pt type... not including the last few days of Adams' juicy apples... I hope, when the entire project (3 CR's and Book) is done, to review it all and sift through it for further nuggets of insight.

Suggestion for the book... perhaps two-sizes of font, with the stuff for the average reader/listener large and the more technical stuff for us "specialists" (read: hopeless devotees!) set in and in smaller type. This way the average reader could read it through rather easily as he wishes and those looking for more scholarly/musicological material can go into it further as desired.

And then on top of that perhaps something further on the web (a la the Annotated Scores) which would be the sort of stuff found in appendices (a very Tolkien format!): like time stamps of themes and texts or whatever (because I, for one, find it very difficult to actually make out what parts of the texts are being used when... Magpie's site is a great help for the OST's in this regard, but as yet nothing like it has been done by anybody (that I know of) for the CR's texts.)

On another topic: I would think that due to the cost, an actual orchestral score is highly unlikely (although you hinted once M. Shore wasn't agin it!) ... so perhaps it might be offered in pdf format on his website for a download price (this would be a cheaper road than actually printing out these massive scores, no?).

And, finally, Magpie, not to worry about paperbacks lying flat. Most of the music scores I have are paperback (large format with sewn signatures) and they actually open flatter than those I have that are hardcover.

Timdalf (whose heroics are truly antics!)

Zaentz Rings in Jackson for Prequels

As Lord of the Rings fans mounted a protest following word that New Line had dropped Peter Jackson from consideration as director of The Hobbit and another Lord of the Rings prequel, producer Saul Zaentz has given assurances that Jackson will indeed direct the two films. A German website, Elbenwald.de, posted an interview with Zaentz, who acquired the rights to the works of the late Rings writer, J.R.R. Tolkien, in 1976 (the Saul Zaentz Company owns Tolkien Enterprises), in which Zaentz says, "It will definitely be shot by Peter Jackson. ... Next year The Hobbit rights will fall back to my company. I suppose that Peter will wait because he knows that he will make the best deal with us. And he is fed up with the studios: to get his profit share on the Rings trilogy he had to sue New Line. With us, in contrast, he knows that he will be paid fairly and artistically supported without reservation." (The preceding quotation is a translation that appeared on TheHobbit-Movie.com from the German interview posted on Elbenwald.de.)

It's indeed great news, BUT: what if New Line signs a contract for the two films with another director BEFORE the rights fall back to Saul Zaentz?

Oh, and

@ EldarionSOnOfElessar

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what if New Line signs a contract for the two films with another director BEFORE the rights fall back to Saul Zaentz?

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
It's indeed great news, BUT: what if New Line signs a contract for the two films with another director BEFORE the rights fall back to Saul Zaentz?

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New Line still has to work out details with MGM in order to make the movie, and MGM may be able to block New Line from making it until either a) their rights run out or b) they come to their senses and let PJ back in.

>>>Then we're stuck with two crummy Hobbit films and have to wait years before PJ can make his own version. They'll never make a remake less than 10 years after the original.<<<

Not so... First, I doubt if NL can get anything together in a year. Second, they will probably make only 1 film, since I doubt if they know what PJ had in mind for the second tie-in with LotR... Third, we have seen recently several duplicate films come out about the same time: 2 Beowulfs, Les Liaisons Dangereuse and Valmont, Wild and Madagascar, 2 Capote films, 2 Columbus films, etc., etc.... So why not 2 Hobbits (one good and one blah!)?

Anyway, let's not get ourselves all upset about this... It's too soon for anything definite to have happened...

Meanwhile back at the orchestra pit...

Timdalf

Frodo's "Threads of an old life" scene at the end of The Return of the King has the music that commonly plays underneath the Pensive Setting of the Hobbit Theme (I'm pretty sure). Now, was the music for this scene recorded as is, or was the Pensive Setting edited out so we only here the music underneath? I hope we hear it as is, because it is one of my favorite parts of the score.

Also, I think we all know by now that Gandalf's arrival at Minas Tirith was changed in the film, but did Shore score that scene as originally planned? If so, will we hear it in that form (which I think might be similar to the OST unless there is unused music) or will we hear it as heard in the film?

Another question - have you thought about some sort of gift set when this is all said and done? I was thinking something alongside the Extended Edition Gift Sets with the following:

1) Three seperate soundtracks in colour coordination with EE's. (Green for Fellowship and so forth)
2) Any extra music material in another special box
3) Your book
4) Perhaps a live Symphony recording CD
5) A WETA statue, probably music themed (hard with LOTR I know). Maybe Merry and Pippin singing on a table or....yeah, that's about it really!

I've mentioned this way back in the past somewhere, but they should offer a slip case mail away offer for the CRs like they did for the EEs. I did that for my EE movies and it works great.

Doug, would a release of all three CRs in a box set happen to coincide with the release of ROTK:CR or will it be just a solo release only? Just curious. Thanks!

I thought the heat (37*C) down here might've warped the box, but if other people are having issues with it, then it must be a widespread problem.

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Originally posted by jb1234:
Mine doesn't snap shut either. It also arrived slightly dented. I was pretty angry about it.

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Yup same here.

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Originally posted by Timdalf:
Not so... First, I doubt if NL can get anything together in a year. Second, they will probably make only 1 film, since I doubt if they know what PJ had in mind for the second tie-in with LotR...

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