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Originally posted by weyhoops:
So I've been around the board long enough to hear quite a bit about Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen. I have to admit, I am a 100% "Ring" virgin but am very interested in checking it out. What do you all suggest as the best way to go about beginning this journey? Thanks!

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Hey! What do ya know. I'm exactly the same (although, in retrospect, I realize I have indeed heard "Ride of the Valkyries"). I looked up the same version gkgyver recommended you on Amazon and was more than a little staggered by the length (14 discs) and price ($163.99 US). So I went onto the iTunes Store and found a lovely little highlights album from the very same Georg Solti recording for $9.99. I listened to it today, and I simply adored about every minute of it. Once I get up the courage to drop $164 on the complete set, I will.

What I mean, in short, is that if you are reserved about spending the mucho $$, you can check out the highlights on iTunes to see how you'll like the set. Here is a direct link to the iTunes album: Das Ring der Nibelungen (Excerpts)

In other thoughts, why was this set mixed so badly? The Fellowship wasn't much better. Still, in lieu of mixing the sound in such a fashion as to achieve a harmonious, orchestral feel, I often hear the strings being drowned out, the timps and percussion overpowering and certain "solos" too solo (they drown out the rest of the orchestra). I've listen thrice so far, each time on a different device (with and with out headphones). Though the mixing isn't as bad as I first thought, it still isn't good. Alas!

Finally, there are two instances which I can think of in which the score reflects the film and, I should think, not what Herr Maestro originally wrote. The first is the phenomenal choir section of Glamdring (the part at the end in 3/4 time which sings to Gandalf and the Balrog's fall); the second is Miranda Otto's brilliantly underscored lamentation. For both of these times, the score seems to suddenly cut off, as it does in the film. Surely there is more! And, especially for the former example, I REALLY want to hear it. Those few seconds are so utterly astonishing that I have made them my official Theme Music (my theme song being the Vorspiel from Herr Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nuernberg (yes, I'm another Wagner fanatic)).

So, there you have it. This post is probably stupefeingly long; I appologise, if it is desired.

Cheers!

The length: It is meant to be heard over four evenings: The first evening has no intermission (it's short at just over two hours). The following three evenings has two intermissions; one of twenty minutes for drinks between the first and second acts and the second, for supper, betwixt the second and third acts.

The cost: Though it is worth every penny and more, look in second-hand shoppes. You'll probably find at least one copy in mighty fine condition.

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Hey! What do ya know. I'm exactly the same (although, in retrospect, I realize I have indeed heard "Ride of the Valkyries"). I looked up the same version gkgyver recommended you on Amazon and was more than a little staggered by the length (14 discs) and price ($163.99 US). So I went onto the iTunes Store and found a lovely little highlights album from the very same Georg Solti recording for $9.99. I listened to it today, and I simply adored about every minute of it. Once I get up the courage to drop $164 on the complete set, I will.

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The Solti is the complete set recording that I have. It's very strong (although not perfect... but then again, I haven't found a complete set that is). Keep in mind that the highlights disc you have has just orchestral excerpts. If you don't like opera singing, I guarantee that you'll find the other 13 hours to be sheer hell.

I haven't listened to the Ring fully yet but I have all four vocal scores and I'm looking forward to studying the music in depth.

As for the TTT complete set, I'm shocked to see so many people upset with the packaging. Along with the dents, there's a bulge down the spine, the whole thing doesn't stand steadily and the booklet that holds the discs is bent, like it had been stretched too hard. The whole thing feels like a used copy to me. It's upsetting because they did a great job with the FOTR complete and it was cheaper too!

(I too would also love to see the scores to the three films made available. The orchestration fanatic in me drools at the prospect)

Böhm's live recording from Bayreuth seems to be worthwhile as well (though again I've only heard excerpts here), and even cheaper.

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Originally posted by jb1234:

The Solti is the complete set recording that I have. It's very strong (although not perfect... but then again, I haven't found a complete set that is). Keep in mind that the highlights disc you have has just orchestral excerpts. If you don't like opera singing, I guarantee that you'll find the other 13 hours to be sheer hell.

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Worry not! I very much appreciate opera of almost all forms. I am a fan of such singers as Pavarotti, Domingo, Bocelli, Fleming, Battle, etc., and I also have a few opera based CDs (Carmina Burana, etc.).

Also, I wouldn't be a Lord of the Rings score fanatic if I didn't like 'opera'!

Böhm's live recording from Bayreuth seems to be worthwhile as well (though again I've only heard excerpts here), and even cheaper.

Oh, and regarding the Funeral March... it's hard to believe when you only know the standalone piece that it's actually built of a huge number of leitmotifs in various disguises and counterpoints. Brilliant. <<<

I agree the Solti tends to get the big moments and miss the more introspective ones. But his "Goetterdaemmerung" is to die for. I deem it one of the great recordings of all time, and certainly the greatest of this work. Of course, the Funeral March forms part of its climax. The "Walkuere" is marred by the great Hotter being in bad voice at the time (the recording was made very hastily!).

The Karajan can be brilliant, but shall we say, over-rehearsed. He chewed the life out of it. As he tended to do in his later years. It was also known at the time as the "chamber music" version of "Der Ring" because it tended to scale things down.

The Boehm is all too hasty too often.

Unfortunately we do not have a hifi recording of Furtwangler, the greatest Wagner conductor of our time. He was famous for his flexible and inspired tempi. But there are some mono and live recordings. And some orchestral excerpts are just incredible.

A very interesting "Ring" is the English one with Goodall. His singers are not the best and but for an occasional slow tempo his readings are inspired. The real drawback is the English! Our language is not one meant for operatic singing, period. It lacks the rich vowels and consonants of German, or Russian, and the mellifluousness of Italian. (I think Tolkien would agree, hence his Elvish creations.) And since Wagner wrote his own libretti, the German is part and parcel of the meaning and impact of "Der Ring".

As for singers, if you want a real treat that will spoil you for life, find anything with Flagstad and Melchior. Their vocal capacities and qualities will never be equalled and probably never were previously (although we can never know). His great role was Siegfried and, while hers was Isolde, her Immolations can be utterly sublime.

The only video that is faithful to Wagner's intentions (visually) is the Met production. Unfortunately the singers (like all those since the late 70's) cannot compare with their earlier counterparts and were in bad voice at the time. Also you have to deal with Levine's lack of dramatic sense and his molasses tempi.

For a very thorough and sound evaluation of ALL opera recordings I highly recommend a website run by Geoffrey Riggs, a friend, and someone whose knowledge of recordings is second to none.

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023/

So I hope this helps the Wagner newbies out there.

And my apologies to the rest of you for this looong digression from the topic. But since Wagner has been around for 150 years he has amassed some great interpreters and is, after all, a major influence on both Tolkien and Shore, so not completely irrelevant.

Timdalf

As far as packaging goes, When I bought my copy the sides seemed slightly bowed out. Since it's been on my bookshelf for a few weeks now sandwiched between the atlas and the dictionary it seems the problem has gone away. I think that the design looks beautiful but the way this boxset was put together was a little clumsy - the rubber button that holds the audio dvd in place is way off kilter and the ribbon is much shorter in this boxset than in the first one.

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Originally posted by vdemona:
[B]The very idea of opera sung in English makes me cringe!

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Britten did a few VERY good ones but for the most part, English opera didn't catch on in the standard repertoire. I personally prefer the gutsier sounds of German and the melodious sounds of Italian.

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Originally posted by Green Knight:
Hi every one!
Well I finally got my copy! Yeah!!!
I also have the same problem with the box…hope ROTK will not have this problem

The march of the Ents doesn’t have the Drums after all…WHYYYYY!!!
Come on the pounding drums in the movie fit perfectly why there are not there?
Besides that it’s excellent!
Good News about your book Doug, I am waiting with great anticipation (are we all?!)
About the hobbit themes Doug, you’re saying that the Lullaby setting is returning not debuting. Is that a mistake because I can find this in FOTR

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This is probably what you meant anyway, but they are there. They are just mixed as quietly or perhaps more quietly than on the OST, and thus, compared to the movie, are virtually non-existent. This was also my one and only less-than-minor complaint about this set. After I got the packaging off and took it to my car, that was the first track I navigated to, and after hearing it, I sorta drooped like a wet noodle.

It took me four minutes to get to this page and post...

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Originally posted by Christian K?n:
Well, I'll be the latest to join in the chorus of: OPEN A NEW THREAD.

It took me four minutes to get to this page and post...

CK

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4 minutes?
What did you do?
You realize you can click on page 29 from the first page of the thred.

Once a thread is more than a page long, what's the difference between clicking on page "2" or page "29"?

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Yeahp that was exactly what I meant.
But with the same theory as the wolves of isengard has the 2 different versions with the vocals it could be the same here, we already have that version from the march of the ents from the ost. I do hope that things like that maybe go to the rarities set (I know that’s not going to happen but…)

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Originally posted by CaptPorridge:

4 minutes?
What did you do?
You realize you can click on page 29 from the first page of the thred.

Once a thread is more than a page long, what's the difference between clicking on page "2" or page "29"?

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I'm sure that's what Christian did, CAPTAIN PORRIDGE.

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Originally posted by vdemona:
The very idea of opera sung in English makes me cringe!

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It takes some getting used to, but it's fine when it's meant to be in English. Nyman and Glass have done some great stuff, for example.

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After the complete "Return of the King" score is released next year, Shore will eventually record the two-hour, 10-minute "Lord of the Rings Symphony," which is still being performed to sellout crowds around the world.

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Now *that* is more like; interesting, this seems like an official confirmation.

And speaking of this, I hope something heavy falls on John Kurlander before he can do this recording. I actually don't have a major problem with the sound of LotR, but I remember liking the crystal-clear sound of the Symphony just as well. How about Joel Iwataki or Shawn Murphy?! Just to have a different angle!

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WETA also did Narnia, and that sucked, in my humble opinion.

The movie, not the prop work.

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http://www.theonering.net/rumour_mill/moviediscussion/index.html

It is based on the appendices material in the TTT EE, Music for Middle-earth. I have broken the discussion into 6 topics to be posted over 6 days:
Themes
Emotional Choices
Vocals and Lyrics
Postproduction
Fun (the gong and Abbey Road)
In the End (wrap up/overview)

There have been some nice insights already and there are things that I think people here could add especially considering the conversations we've had here with Doug. I haven't been able to keep up with them all and I think of my role as facilitator of a discussion rather than a leader. (gkgyver is a member of that forum and has already contributed a post)

The boards at TORN are old fashioned RPG boards. They look and function a bit differently than the sort of board like moviemusic has. Once a topic has 'fallen' off the board, it is locked and one cannot post. The threads may remain active for a few weeks but the majority of conversation will happen this week and perhaps into the next but probably no longer.

If you are interested, check us out. We'd love to have your input.

Well thank you. I do like some of Glass's work. I may have to check out Nyman and Glass a little further.

And now, let's hear about the preliminary work being done on The Return of the King: The Complete Recordings! Ohhhh, Doooouuuug!!!!!

Fine recording, good performance, historical in scope and a great box set. HOWEVER:

Being a musician and an opera fan, as well as being a recording engineer, I own several releases of this particular collection of recordings by London/Decca. The original recording of Das Rheingold (the first set of CDs in this boxed set of operas) dates back to the late-1950s, and stands as a landmark achievement in audio recording, especially considering that it is the first EVER complete studio recording ever made of Das Rheingold. First released on vinyl and reel-to-reel tapes in the late-50, this recording has been re-released countless times in several formats, including an excellent mid-1970s release on Dolby-B encoded reel-to-reel tape.

The CD collection has a glaring, horrible problem that I do not see mentioned ANYWHERE in these Amazon blogs, and it shocks me that no other musicians have noticed: THE ENTIRE OPERA "DAS RHEINGOLD" IN THIS COLLECTION IS OFF PITCH!! PITCH FOR THE ENTIRE OPERA IS NEARLY A SEMITONE SHARP!! NEARLY A SEMITONE!!!!!! Historically, there is an explanation for this. From my understanding of the issue, the recording was made in Vienna on American Ampex tape machines that were shipped to London/Decca for the purpose. The tape machines used synchronous motors that were erroneously not adjusted to compensate for the difference in line frequencies between the U.S. and Europe, and therefore the tape machines ran fractionally slow. Play the master tapes back on a tape machine running at the correct speed, and the master recording plays FRACTIONALLY FAST.

None of the earlier releases of this opera that I have ever heard share this issue, since all submasters of the recording would have been adjusted to compensate for the original technical error, and the adjustment done properly in the analog realm has absolutely no negativerepurcussions on the product outcome.

The CD collection portends to have returned to the original master, and that may be the issue. Nonetheless, why hasn't anyone with music knowledge raised the red flag about this egregious error in the CD release?? Why doesn't anyone notice?? I even attempted to write London/Decca about the issue and have received no reply.

Anyway, I'm also biased, being a Karajan fan when it comes to Bruckner, Wagner and Strauss (though not too biased to prefer different recordings when I find better ones - like Kempe's Alpensinfonie or Celibidache's Bruckner 7 and Wand's 8). And as I said, I've only heard excerpts from the Solti, while I have the full Karajan on CD. But yes, I'd buy the Karajan again.

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Originally posted by TheTennisBallKid:
Regarding the Balrog fight/Gandalf rebirth music in the Fan credits on the EE...the opening twenty or so seconds of that piece (2:04:33_4:55, Disc Two, Region 1;lyrics from "The Fight"?) is an alternate for Gandalf being revealed to the Three Hunters, isn't it? I was syncing unused music with the DVD tonight, and it seems to fit there. (43:24_43:48, Region 1, TE)

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What is up with that? That snippet isn't on the complete recordings either.

To make your choice, indeed you need to give a listen to the hightlights single cd's of the Solti, the Karajan, the Levine and any others out there... This is the simplist, cheapest and most reliable way for you to get a feel for the two central elements in any Ring recording: the conducting and the singing. The different qualities will be immediately apparent.

First, realize there is NO perfect Ring out there and probably never will be. The two elements above plus the improved techology of recording since the Golden Era of Wagner singing and conducting makes it almost impossible.

Both Wagner conducting and singing have grossly deteriorated since the 30's and 40's. He created and taught a whole generation of conductors, and the last of those who inherited that legacy were Furtwangler and Goodall.

Barenboim and Tielemann are the best around these days and they have restored things magnificently... but conductors are not the whole story.

The singers of those decades were born and raised at a time when Wagner dominated opera seasons and when careers were nurtured more slowly and less hectically so that singers stayed put for whole seasons at a time. Since the late 50's and 60's the lack of heroic tenors has increasingly reached crisis proportions. The lower quality of heroic sopranos is almost on the same level. This is common knowledge in the Wagner opera world. And that was also an era before recordings when it was a lifetime event to hear a complete Ring, and could only be done in person!!

A parallel with this is the lack of great personalities as leading men and ladies in the film world today... Who today compares with Grant, Flynn, Gable, Wayne...? Nobody. Well, the same thing has happened in the vocal world, especially given the demands of Wagner. Hitler's hyjacking of Bayreuth and Wagner did not help make Wagner very popular for decades after WWII... we are still feeling the after-effects of that, sort of an artistic hangover.

The Solti Ring was on the cusp of that major downturn. Nilsson was still another force of nature... and there has not been a heldensopran yet to begin to compete with her (Crespin and Dernesch in Karajan are good, but not in her league). Windgassen was not, but a very intelligent interpreter. The last real heldentenor was John Vickers (his Tristan is devastating, but his range was not high enough for Siegfried so he stuck with Siegmund)... the present crop have yet to measure up. Perhaps some will yet emerge.

So the later the recording, the better the techology, but the worse the singing gets generally speaking. That is why the Solti and Karajan still remain sets of preference.

Also there has been a change in the overall approach to interpreting the roles. Morris had perhaps the greatest voice since the 40's (and perhaps greater) for Wotan, but he snarls his way through making Wotan into a co-villain with Alberich, lost is the noble, tragic dimension of the character (and if you lose that, then Brunnhilde's Immolation and her previous actions lose essential motivational dimensions). Well, that is part and parcel of almost all productions since 1965 being examples what most of us call Eurotrash... so, lost is the beauty of tone (as well as power and ease of vocal production) that Wagner and others have thought essential to the roles.

So what I do, along with many others, is mix and match sets, even down to the act level! And I repeat: to really hear what Siegfried should sound like (and never has since!) you need to hear Melchior...

So I say, start with Solti for sheer dramatic impact... then try the Karajan Walkure for Vickers... and then hunt up some of the mono non-hifi earlier recordings (perhaps you can listen at the libraries to get a taste of these)... and finally, let your sonic imagination run free to get beyond any limitations. There are great moments in each of them, and drawbacks as well. You are embarking on a great journey where truly, "the road goes ever on and on..."

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Regarding the Balrog fight/Gandalf rebirth music in the Fan credits on the EE...the opening twenty or so seconds of that piece (2:04:33_4:55, Disc Two, Region 1;lyrics from "The Fight"?) is an alternate for Gandalf being revealed to the Three Hunters, isn't it?

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>>>It's impossible to enter the lists in the on-going battle of supremacy in the war of the recorded RINGS. That being said, I will put in two cents.

First, to address, the one objective point that was brought up: I have perfect pitch, what when I was a Juilliard 30 years ago was recognized as especially good perfect-pitch. I have never noticed that
Solti's "Rheingold" is particularly sharp. Many recordings are a little "off", but if this one were as off--anyway near as off!--as this reports it to be, I and many others would find it intolerable to listen to.

In order to get hooked on the RING, it requires an open heart and mind, and a good imagination, not one particular recording. If money is a big issue, there are several economical versions of the RING that could fit the bill. In any event, we place too much importance on the performer, and not enough on the music or work of art (this statement being made by one whose bread is earned by playing the piano)! That being said, I would choose the Solti, all else being equal. It has an incomparable cast and an aura of excitement and occasion. I personally would not opt for the Karajan, which has an artificial quality to me.

The Levine has a flawed cast and some disappointing passages, but also
considerable qualities. There are many live or semi-live performances that are excellent.

But I repeat that for me the Solti is the first RING I would buy and own.
Best, Jeffrey Swann<<<

PS J Swann has both the old LP and the newest cd version of the Solti. He hears no such pitch distortion. And I have never heard before of such... so there must be some other explanation for what the reviewer is hearing. T

[Message edited by Timdalf on 12-07-2006]

[Message edited by Timdalf on 12-07-2006]

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Originally posted by Calvin:
In case I've missed hints about this, is the
'rarities disc' expected to be part of the
multimedia content of the book?

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That's the rumor. I remember suggesting this to Doug many moons ago, I will go through my posts and find out, just for S&Gs!

-Chad

[quote]I can tell you a surefire way to sell more of Doug's upcoming book is to include this rarity disc(s) with the book. I will still be buying it anyway but it's just a suggestion if you're listening Doug!

-Chad

[Message edited by AustinHusker on 04-10-2006] [quote]

[quote]As for the rumored Rarities Disc… well, it’s prefixed with “rumored” for a reason. But if you want to be technical, Return of the King is technically “rumored” at this point as well, not because it won’t happen, just because these projects are so huge, there’s no way they could be done in overlapping waves. It’s a One Thing at a Time deal. King, Rarities and the Book will be plotted out once The Two Towers box is put to bed.

…But I do like that idea of putting a CD with the book! [quote]

At last the package is in my possession from yesterday Thursday 7 December.

I was going to wait until Saturday to listen to both complete recordings back-to-back, but I couldn't hold off, and last night - even though I didn't have 6 hours and 9 minutes to spare, I listened to TTT:CR by itself.

What an experience, and quite a different one at that, and at some sections I am puzzled........I need to watch the film again....

One question I have which any one on this message board who has the set can answer is: In the end credits of the film (not the Fan Credits, but the actual credits), correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there the music piece (the nature them I think) where the trio meet Gandalf The White included and seemed somewhat expanded from the actual proper place in the film, --- I don't think I heard this on TTT:CR end credits section??????, or was I so overwhelmed by the experience that I didn't pick that out individually by itself?????