Happy Holidays to all – and Happy Impending Weekend to those whose interests don’t coincide with any particular upcoming holidays. I’ve finally got a few free moments to dig through a handful of questions and update you on the Complete Recordings – although it looks like you guys are getting pretty good at answering questions on your own!

>>>just a question: is the c.r. music from the original recording? or was this music especially recorded for the cr?>>>

>>>The CR consists of the recordings made for the original post-production of the theatrical releases, and then those made for the post-production of the extended versions of each film. Nothing new was recorded for the CRs.>>>

See, I’m not needed here! 

>>>Frodo's "Threads of an old life" scene at the end of The Return of the King has the music that commonly plays underneath the Pensive Setting of the Hobbit Theme (I'm pretty sure). Now, was the music for this scene recorded as is, or was the Pensive Setting edited out so we only here the music underneath? I hope we hear it as is, because it is one of my favorite parts of the score.>>>

You’re hearing the music here as it was recorded. Unless something changes, you’ll be hearing the music exactly like this on the ROTK: CR set.

>>>Also, I think we all know by now that Gandalf's arrival at Minas Tirith was changed in the film, but did Shore score that scene as originally planned? If so, will we hear it in that form (which I think might be similar to the OST unless there is unused music) or will we hear it as heard in the film?>>>

Shore’s music was written to the original cut of the film, with Gandalf’s initial arrival at Minas Tirith coinciding with Faramir’s retreat from Osgiliath. In all honesty, it is still being decided how this will be presented on the CD set.

>>>Doug, is there any hope to hear the abandoned version of the "Into the west" (not sure about the title) song by Lennox in the CR?>>>

If you’re referring to “Use Well These Days”… currently it seems unlikely that this will placed on the ROTK: CR set, simply because it’s never actually a part of the storytelling. However, it will be included on an upcoming release, so don’t worry at all. You’ll have it.

>>>IIRC it was even featured on some of the OST versions, right?>>>

It was on the DVD that came with the deluxe ROTK CD, yep.

>>>So I've been around the board long enough to hear quite a bit about Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen. I have to admit, I am a 100% "Ring" virgin but am very interested in checking it out. What do you all suggest as the best way to go about beginning this journey? Thanks!>>>

Hey, with all this Wagner shoptalk, I thought some of you may be interested in a book by Bryan Magee, The Tristan Chord: Wagner and Philosophy.
http://www.amazon.com/Tristan-Chord-Wagner-Philosophy/dp/080507189X/sr=8-2/qid=1166818217/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-4884321-0146264?ie=UTF8&s=books

(I don’t know Bryan, so I’m not stumping for him, but given the intellectual points parsed in the Wagner discussion, I thought this wouldn’t be out of line.)

>>>Another question - have you thought about some sort of gift set when this is all said and done? I was thinking something alongside the Extended Edition Gift Sets with the following:>>>

>>>I've mentioned this way back in the past somewhere, but they should offer a slip case mail away offer for the CRs like they did for the EEs. I did that for my EE movies and it works great.

Doug, would a release of all three CRs in a box set happen to coincide with the release of ROTK:CR or will it be just a solo release only? Just curious. Thanks!>>>

You’re not too far off the mark here.

>>>mine doesn't shut either! I would expect a lot more for 60 dollars>>>

FYI, the shutting issue is related to shipping not manufacturing, so I’m afraid there’s little the production side can do short of requesting that handlers take a little more care… which is being done.

>>>Good News about your book Doug, I am waiting with great anticipation (are we all?!)
About the hobbit themes Doug, you’re saying that the Lullaby setting is returning not debuting. Is that a mistake because I can find this in FOTR>>>

It is a conscious decision. The Lullaby material is based so closely on the original Shire theme (as it should be) that it can’t really be called a brand new motif. However, something like the Playful Setting takes the Shire’s stepwise intro and creates an entirely new motif out of it, so that was pegged as Debuting material. It’s a fine line, and we have to be very, very careful to properly present the nature of the material.

>>>And now, let's hear about the preliminary work being done on The Return of the King: The Complete Recordings! Ohhhh, Doooouuuug!!!!!>>>

Heh, well, it’s happening! The liners are in a rough form, a draft of a first rough edit is completed. HS is busy with his opera right now (as well as some other projects… yes, one of which is LOTR related), so as soon as he has time, his first round of comments will come in and we’ll begin coordinating efforts.

>>>Regarding the Balrog fight/Gandalf rebirth music in the Fan credits on the EE...the opening twenty or so seconds of that piece (2:04:33_4:55, Disc Two, Region 1;lyrics from "The Fight"?) is an alternate for Gandalf being revealed to the Three Hunters, isn't it? I was syncing unused music with the DVD tonight, and it seems to fit there. (43:24_43:48, Region 1, TE)>>>

Yep, it is an alternate. The version on the CR is the other significant take… and the one that HS ultimately decided to use here.

>>>In case I've missed hints about this, is the 'rarities disc' expected to be part of the multimedia content of the book?>>>

>>>That's the rumor. I remember suggesting this to Doug many moons ago, I will go through my posts and find out, just for S&Gs!>>>

It’s still the rumor, as well. I’ll discuss details when details are more detailed. 

>>>One question I have which any one on this message board who has the set can answer is: In the end credits of the film (not the Fan Credits, but the actual credits), correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there the music piece (the nature them I think) where the trio meet Gandalf The White included and seemed somewhat expanded from the actual proper place in the film, --- I don't think I heard this on TTT:CR end credits section??????, or was I so overwhelmed by the experience that I didn't pick that out individually by itself?????>>>

See above, it you will. The Fan Scroll music was an alternate.

>>>I think it is funny and great, that moment in the recordings on the first disc of The Two Towers - I think it might be track 6 at about 3:30 minutes in, and I just can't get that moment (5 beat pattern) out of my head of the excitement and anticipation of that podcast.........'And this is the moment you've all been waiting for!!!!...........'

Thanks Doug...........LOL I don't think I will ever imagine anything else, some may say you've ruined the piece for me as I imagine nothing else but your voice about to appear (and it doesn't), but it just reminds me of how exciting everything is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>>

HA! Will I hope I didn’t permanently mar your perception of this music with my dumb voice! Just keep playing that track over and over, you’ll eventually burn my voice out of your head, I promise!

>>>in the track ''edoras'' as the fellowship enter edoras and aragorn looks up to see eowyn and as he looks again she is gone and there is a gong, is there a reason for this gong not being on the CR.>>>

The tam-tam (or gong) was performed here by Peter Jackson. It was recorded wild, and never actually a part of Shore’s original concept for this piece. Just something fun for Jackson to do, and a nice bit of PR for the sessions. Now certainly it didn’t hurt anything, but when the time came to reassemble the piece for the CR, Shore went back to his original composition, which did not include the tam-tam hit.

>>>Also could you further exaplain, cause i dont quite understand why that bit of music as frodo and sam come up the mountain, originally the title for TTT theatrical edition is not on the CR and instead the shire theme is there.>>>

Check the Annotated Score online, if you have a moment. The music you hear in the film is tracked. The music on the CD set is what Shore actually wrote and recorded.

>>>In regards to the "Rarities" disc that is being rumoured. I have info from some one "VERY reliable" that this will happen after the release of ROTK-CR.>>>

Are there spies in the midst? 

>>>1. I was trying to play one phrase from the Two Towers liner notes on my piano to identify a theme I couldn’t hear, but noticed a sign I’ve never seen before. It’s neither a treble nor bass clef, and I noticed it’s only for the viola (which might explain why I’ve never seen it before). What is the name of this clef (or whatever it is) and how would I read the notes for that line for piano? Is it comparable to the treble or bass clefs?>>>

The alto clef is a C clef, which means whatever line is between the two curves is always designated as C. (Bass clef, on the other hand in a F clef, treble is a G clef. You can get a much more detailed explanation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clefs)

>>>2. Shore’s score is the first time I’ve encountered aleatoric writing, as Doug defined the musical style of the Watcher in the Water music. Would the cue from 2:18 (and more audibly 2:30) of ‘Night Camp’, and 2:40 and 3:20 of ‘The Dead Marshes’, and especially from the beginning (and mostly 0:40 to 1:36) of ‘Gandalf the White’, be other examples of aleatoric music? The opening 90 seconds of ‘Gandalf the White’ is one of my favorite moments. I’ve always loved the sound of an orchestra warming up, which seems at least superficially related to aleatoric music or what’s going on at these moments.>>>

Yes, those are both examples of aleatoric music. It’s all over the LOTR scores, actually, though I believe TTT features more of it than the other two.

>>>Is there a difference between aleatoric music, ‘tone clusters’, and ‘divisis’ (described on p. 42 of the Fellowship liner notes)?>>>

There are differences yes. In simplified terms, tone clusters simply apply to harmonies in which several stepwise pitches are sounded simultaneously. If you play the first five tones of a major scale simultaneously, you’ll have rich, bright a tone cluster. If you play the first five tones of a chromatic scale simultaneously, you’ll have a rather piercing, harsh tone cluster. It’s simply a different harmonic scheme, not triadic, not quartal, not quintal, etc.

Divisis are markings in written music that indicate a section is to divide itself in a non-traditional way. For example, if you asked the first violins to divide themselves four ways to perform a major seventh chord, you’d notate “div.” and indicate a divisi. Shore makes extensive use of divisis in his string writing, both using consonant harmony and dissonant harmony. This is how he achieves some of those thick, threatening sounds in the string sections (there are some spots where the celli and basses are divided 8 or even 12 ways to play a cluster)… as well as some of his very thick, richly sonorous major chords.

>>>3. The passage in ‘The Dead Marshes’ from 3:20 to 3:45 where the choir does…whatever they do. Man that would have been amazing to be present for the recording of this part. Some of the choir appear to be making sounds in this part that are not notes in the conventional sense, including whimpers, sighs, and so forth. Would Shore have been able to give direction in his musical notation of what he wanted, or does that kind of music need to be talked through, directed, and then conducted in person? Do professional choir members today receive vocal training in these kind of ‘extra-music’ sounds? Before the Complete Recordings when I watched the movie I assumed those sounds were part of the sound design of the film, not part of Shore’s composition.>>>

There are actually ways to notate this type of writing. You can see one method here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprechstimme

Anyone that is schooled in music today will have to tackle these Twentieth Century techniques, so it’s really just part of the standard training.

>>>4. Just as a comment, I’ve noticed that the presentation of the Ringwraith theme in ‘Wraiths on Wings’ is far more vicious and less majestic than in Fellowship. There was a dark beauty to the Ringwraith choir in Fellowship and one gets the impression Shore wanted the audience to identify with on some level, but here, the choir almost seems to be…achorally chanting the theme, instead of singing it (if ‘achoral’ makes any sense). The image that pops into my head is that the Wraiths got a severe tongue lashing from Sauron after they failed in Fellowship, and now gone is the beauty of their evilness. Now they’re just desperate to find the Ring and as a result, their musical presence is far more base and primitive.>>>

Yes! They’re also gaining in power. Look at the score of their writing in ROTK. As the hobbits get closer and closer to Mordor, they’re approach the seat of the Wraiths’ power.

>>>we at ColonneSonore.net have just published a new exclusive interview with Howard Shore, in which he talks about THE DEPARTED, the LOTR Complete Recordings and SOUL OF THE ULTIMATE NATION:>>>

Maurizio, I enjoyed your piece as always. Thanks so much for the kind words!

>>>As for "Fellowship" (and "Towers" and "Return" and as EE's too??) done with live orchestra. What a stunning idea! It will be an experience like no other! And what a feat it will be to get the orchestra to play pianissimo enough and for long stretches under the dialogue!!... Suggestion: it will have to be done a la Bayreuth with a hidden orchestra so the light spill does not effect the screen...>>>

This Fellowship performance may be coming up sooner than you think. Stay alert! 

>>>Do you know anything more about this? If so, do you know whether the score would be balanced against the sound effects and dialogue -- similar to say, the 20th Anniversary Premiere of E.T. -- or if it would be more of a FOTR-as-a-silent-film experience, perhaps with subtitles?>>>

I don’t know many more details other than there are negotiations under way right now, and, as I say, performances may begin sooner rather than later. I’d look very carefully at what Shore did with the Naked Lunch concerts to get an idea of what may transpire here.

>>>Good Lord! It looks like they're not actually carrying it any more, and it's only available from their partners. That is just weird as can be. Why would they no longer be carrying it themselves? Was this a limited release and they aren't getting it in any more? Or did they decide that at its overblown MSRP that not enough people were buying it to make carrying it worthwhile?

This whole TTT situation does not make sense.>>>

As Mr. TennisBall points out, yes, TTT has actually sold out! It’s barely been out of a month, but it’s already sold out, which I consider nothing short of amazing! There is another pressing under way now, and it’ll be available again in early January. So fear not. As always, no conspiracies, so scheming. You guys just bought them all! 

Ok, last update before a long winter’s nap… I believe that as of the beginning of this week, the deal is finally firmly in place for the LOTR book. If all goes according to plan, you should be able to hold this book (and its friendly plastic accoutrements) in your hands in 2007. So get ready, it’s gonna be a big year for the music of LOTR!

I’m going to go start taking vitamins now.

Happy new year, all. Thanks for your support, well wishes and insatiable interest over the past few months. Hope you’ll all be along for the ride in 2007. Here we go!

HOLY ****ING SH*T THATS AWSOME NEWS!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

---

>>>Frodo's "Threads of an old life" scene at the end of The Return of the King has the music that commonly plays underneath the Pensive Setting of the Hobbit Theme (I'm pretty sure). Now, was the music for this scene recorded as is, or was the Pensive Setting edited out so we only here the music underneath? I hope we hear it as is, because it is one of my favorite parts of the score.>>>

You’re hearing the music here as it was recorded. Unless something changes, you’ll be hearing the music exactly like this on the ROTK: CR set.

---

BUT: on the "Making Of" that is featured on ROTK's bonus DVD, you can clearly hear a version of that piece with whistle. It play right at the conclusion of the documentary, after, yet another, expanded version of the ROTK end credits music.

quote:

---

>>>in the track ''edoras'' as the fellowship enter edoras and aragorn looks up to see eowyn and as he looks again she is gone and there is a gong, is there a reason for this gong not being on the CR.>>>

The tam-tam (or gong) was performed here by Peter Jackson. It was recorded wild, and never actually a part of Shore’s original concept for this piece. Just something fun for Jackson to do, and a nice bit of PR for the sessions. Now certainly it didn’t hurt anything, but when the time came to reassemble the piece for the CR, Shore went back to his original composition, which did not include the tam-tam hit.

---

Payback time for King Kong. Get PJ off this record!

quote:

---

>>>In regards to the "Rarities" disc that is being rumoured. I have info from some one "VERY reliable" that this will happen after the release of ROTK-CR.>>>

Are there spies in the midst?

---

Do you think the anonymous fanbase is powerless?
But in case this is true, what does "afterwards" mean? And how will it be presented? I mean, releasing the complete scores for the trilogy is one thing, it's a huge event, but will the same number of people be interested in a follow-up release just containing alternates?

But who knows? Chances are there are enough considerable alternates to fill a fourth 3 disc set.
Let's call it "The Lord Of The Rings Complete Recordings: Appendix"

quote:

---

Shore makes extensive use of divisis in his string writing, both using consonant harmony and dissonant harmony. This is how he achieves some of those thick, threatening sounds in the string sections (there are some spots where the celli and basses are divided 8 or even 12 ways to play a cluster)… as well as some of his very thick, richly sonorous major chords.

---

Oh yes! That's one thing I love about his writing. This great combination of traditional and new techniques. I believe Isengard's 5/4 rhythm is often hammered out by the low strings divided many times.

quote:

---

Yes! They’re also gaining in power. Look at the score of their writing in ROTK. As the hobbits get closer and closer to Mordor, they’re approach the seat of the Wraiths’ power.

---

I can't stress enough how I love the development of the wraiths in the scores. Listen to "The Black Rider", then "Wraiths On Wings", and finally Eowyn Vs Witch King - that's some brilliant thematic evolution right there.
I love how the wraith music transforms from a relentless, powerful, in-your-face march into a vicious, omnipresent danger that can pop up any second.

Check the Annotated Score online, if you have a moment. The music you hear in the film is tracked. The music on the CD set is what Shore actually wrote and recorded.

Anyone know where is this piece is tracked from??????

[Message edited by Timdalf on 12-23-2006]

quote:

---

Originally posted by gkgyver:

Payback time for King Kong. Get PJ off this record!

---

lol

The Annotated Score says this:

quote:

---

Apparitional portamentos, guide the composition down a more ghoulish road. Lyric soprano Isabel Bayrakdarian, coupled with violins, slowly bends pitches upward as the bodies of dead Men, Elves and Orcs that litter the swamp water peer back at the living with blank faces. The veil of aleatoric strings and timpani again lowers and Frodo is bewitched. He falls into the murky waters where he’s wrapped in a smear of Schönbergesque Sprechstimme voices, half singing, half speaking the text “The Dead Marshes.”

---

But what about the vocals between 2:45-3:16. Are they portementos or Sprechstimme? If the Sprechstimme voices do not start at 2:45, can anyone tell exactly when they do start? (poor speakers... poor hearing...)

Thank you in advance for any help. Tell me how you want to be credited on my site. ;^)

quote:

---

Anyone know where is this piece is tracked from??????

---

Probably from "The Sword That Was Broken" in FOTR. Or from the scene where Gandalf is imprisoned on Orthanc.

Happy Holidays!

quote:

---

From my understanding of those terms, it seems that the section between 1:55-2:45 contain three portementos. I would also wager that the vocals we hear starting around 3:16 are the Sprechstimme voices.
But what about the vocals between 2:45-3:16. Are they portementos or Sprechstimme? If the Sprechstimme voices do not start at 2:45, can anyone tell exactly when they do start? (poor speakers... poor hearing...)

---

The way I see it, the section between 1:55 and 2:45 don't contain portamentos in the voices. Isabel Bayrakdarian's voice seems to be singing glissandi. The voice between 2:45 and 3:16 don't do anything strange IMO, they just sing along.
The Sprechstimme starts at 3:25. You can tell because the Sprechstimme doesn't seem to have a specific pitch.

quote:

---

The way I see it, the section between 1:55 and 2:45 don't contain portamentos in the voices. Isabel Bayrakdarian's voice seems to be singing glissandi.

---

quote:

---

In current usage, portamento is making a continuous "slide" up or down in frequency from a previous note, rather than a discrete change from one note to the next. The trombone also produces quite effective portamento (referred to as a "slur"), as would any instrument with a slide, such as the slide whistle.

---

quote:

---

A glissando is a similar effect to portamento which moves in discrete steps; for example, dragging a finger over the keys of the piano.

---

Thanks for the clarification of the start time of Sprechstimme. In your opinion (or anyone else that weighs in... ) do you think lyrics are being 'sung' between 2:45-3:16? I'm guessing that the portamentos (or glissandi) are just sounds and not scraps of lyrics. Do you suppose anything *not* portamentos (or glissandi) are - by default- using lyrics? Or do you suppose there are some vocal sounds or notes, similar to the Hymn for Gandalf outside of Moria? I suppose Doug could help with this too but I'm willing to rely on fan help. I can't expect Doug to answer every question I might have in regards to the soundtrack. (As I would drive him as nuts as Pippin did Gandalf.)

You might guess that I would need to address this music in the lyrics section on my site. I have no hope of determining what lyrics are sung when... but perhaps I can at least determine *when* lyrics are being used as opposed to sound. So... I need to decide how to address/describe the vocals in the Dead Marshes. The only way I can do that is to pick the brains of those more knowledgeable than I.

Do you think lyrics are being 'sung' between 2:45-3:16? This is after the portementos and before the Sprechstimme vocals. But the whole subject has taken up more posts than I think it warrants.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug Adams:

>>>Another question - have you thought about some sort of gift set when this is all said and done? I was thinking something alongside the Extended Edition Gift Sets with the following:>>>

>>>I've mentioned this way back in the past somewhere, but they should offer a slip case mail away offer for the CRs like they did for the EEs. I did that for my EE movies and it works great.

Doug, would a release of all three CRs in a box set happen to coincide with the release of ROTK:CR or will it be just a solo release only? Just curious. Thanks!>>>

You’re not too far off the mark here.

---

Just to reiterate: I really hope Reprise makes the empty box available by mail order the way New Line did for the EE DVDs. That's the least they can do to reward fan loyalty for the folks who bought each of these CRs on release day. So hopefully we're right on the mark! ;-)

quote:

---

Do you think lyrics are being 'sung' between 2:45-3:16? This is after the portementos and before the Sprechstimme vocals.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swashbuckler:
Portamentos are delicious, especially after having been marinated in red pepper olive oil and cooked on the grill.

---

I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas or at least a good day on the 25th.

Great news from Doug! I'm working on some analyses right now as well as other things. So much fun.

I know its a bit late but I just got the CR on the 25th and all I can say is WOW! This music is fantastic.

As I'm writing this the Fate of the Ring passage from the Heir of Numenor is playing - it still amazes me how well the score is integrated. The Wolves of Isengard and the arrival of the elves at Helm's Deep were great suprises and the battle music is thrilling and powerful. I thought it would be difficult to score the three main action climaxes in the film and balance each so they would be unique yet unified but Mr. Shore presents beautiful and stirring material for each.

The score is such a great listening experience. My speakers shake the room when the Ringwraith theme starts in "Wraiths on Wings". The climactic material is also very well presented, allowing you to be transported from Helm's Deep to Isengard to Osgiliath without becoming disoriented. The re-emergence of the Hobbits theme in the midst of all the terror and destruction is so moving and effective in reminding the listener of what is really at stake.

Congratulations to Mr. Shore, Mr. Adams and all involved in this great release.

Happy new year everyone,
ruckus

Regarding Howard Shore making references to composers of old in the LotR trilogy, you said (back in the 24th page of the old thread) that "the only specific nod in the score is Shore’s Wagner reference in the ROTK credits."

Is there any chance you could tell us where this occurs? I confess... I haven't listened to the entire end credits of RotK while keeping an ear out for this reference, and life is a little too busy at the moment to do so! If you were to tell us, we could probably collectively guess what it was referencing (fun fun!).

Thanks! Looking forward to your next informative post........

Edit: I got part of the way through the credits... I think I found it... right about when the MPAA and Apple logos scroll up (about 2:04:43 on the second EE disc). That VERY "Das Rheingold"-ish orchestral swell just before the beginning of the fan credits?

quote:

---

Originally posted by vdemona:
>>The Hymn for Gandalf does not use lyrics<<

Maybe you're right but I was sure that the Lament for Gandalf was being sung in Sindarin.
Although I suppose it's closer to a chant than actual singing.

---

quote:

---

Regarding Howard Shore making references to composers of old in the LotR trilogy, you said (back in the 24th page of the old thread) that "the only specific nod in the score is Shore’s Wagner reference in the ROTK credits."

Is there any chance you could tell us where this occurs? I confess... I haven't listened to the entire end credits of RotK while keeping an ear out for this reference, and life is a little too busy at the moment to do so! If you were to tell us, we could probably collectively guess what it was referencing (fun fun!).

---

Absolutely no need to play funny guessing games: Doug refers to the last minute of "Into The West" (on the soundtrack), which is paying hommage to "Das Rheingold".

Or is it another section of Das Rheingold?

quote:

---

Originally posted by gkgyver:
Absolutely no need to play funny guessing games: Doug refers to the last minute of "Into The West" (on the soundtrack), which is paying hommage to "Das Rheingold".

If you've heard the symphony already, it's the very last piece of the sixth movement.

---

Yes, the section of the DVD I referred to was that last minute of Into the West, with an additional 10 or so seconds melded into the end, which, while remaining loyal to that arpeggiated string writing in the aforementioned end of "Into the West," veers wholly into "Das Rheingold" territory.

Hm, I've listened to the last minutes of Act III from Die Walkure and can't hear too much similarity to the last minute of ROTK. Are you talking about the staccato notes of the flute from the Magic Fire Music being the notes that Shore plays as tied or sustained notes (I think) in the strings, and at a far slower tempo? Or perhaps the repeated five-descending-notes motif (though I don't see the similarity to ROTK in this music)? Or perhaps the final 30 seconds or so, which bears, again to my amateur ears, only superficial resemblance to ROTK?

And it makes perfect sense, too. Shore said about that final minute that "it's the end, but it's also a new beginning", which pretty much narrows it down to the opening piece of Das Rheingold.

I got this in the mail eons ago. I'll quote it here but I can't defend it. I know nothing about Wagner that Bugs hasn't sung.

quote:

---

From Tony Bannister:
I'd like to draw your attention to an interesting comparison that hit me the very first time I heard the end of the track "Into the West" on the ROTK soundtrack. While the song itself is not my favourite of the trilogy (that's "May it Be"), the section from 4:34 to the end is one of my favourite moments of music in the score. It is intensely reminiscent of the "Leibestod" from Wagner's "Tristan and Isolde" - part of the Ring cycle! I can't think of a better way to end the trilogy than with an homage to such a majestic and moving piece of music. One would assume that Howard Shore knows his Wagner, and I think that he must have wanted to write a comparable piece to round off the trilogy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by gkgyver:
By the way, Doug, nice liner notes for The Nativity Story!

---

Dang! Now I so wish I'd have bought it on physical CD instead of through iTunes!

Well, it looks as if we ended up playing a bit of a "guessing game" indeed on this Wagner reference, doesn't it, gkgyver?

And while Tristan und Isolde was as far as I recall, written somewhere between Siegfried and Götterdämmerung, it is not part of the Ring cycle.<<<

I have to weigh in here and fully agree with MS.

First, T u I is not a part of the Ring although composed between Acts II and III of Siegfried (as was Meistersinger).

Second, the closing bars of the credits for RotK are in the style of the closing bars of Walkeure. They also bear a general stylistic resemblance to the closing bars of Parsifal, Tristan and Goetterdaemerung, but do not quote either the "Magic Fire" leitmotiv of the glockenspiel, piccolos, flutes, woodwinds, and harps, nor the "Slumber" leitmotiv of the cellos but are a reference to the arpeggiated chords of the upper strings that conclude Walkeure and into which these two motivs are woven. And as a closing to LotR as a whole they do not, it seems to me, refer to the Wave leitmotiv of the opening prelude of Rheingold.

I have changed my view as to the work most resembling these bars of RotK originally stated on p. 23 of the first round of this thread.

This sort of rising and falling arpeggiated chord is typical of Wagner when he wants to evoke a moment of serene sublimity. Maestro Shore, I believe, is not quoting but refering to this Wagnerian style. The whole passage from Wotan's words: "Leb'wohl, du kuehnes, herrliches Kind!" is often inexactly referred to as Wotan's Farewell and Magic Fire Music as an orchestral "bleeding chunk", but the actual Magic Fire leitmotif (which comes in after Wotan has summoned Loge, the fire god) more precisely refers to the glockenspiel, piccolo, flute, woodwind, harp and brass parts with the running violin parts below them. It is these violin arpeggiations that Shore references in RotK.

For what it's worth: I have been listening to Wagner for some 40 years and have 20+ different Ring Cycles on cd as well as many individual Ring music dramas as part of a collection of over 1000 Wagner cd's that runs the gamut of the recordings of his works from the 20's and 30's through to today.

Timdalf

[Message edited by Timdalf on 01-03-2007]

[Message edited by Timdalf on 01-03-2007]

quote:

---

Well, it looks as if we ended up playing a bit of a "guessing game" indeed on this Wagner reference, doesn't it, gkgyver?

---

Oh, shut up! <<<

Now, now, gentlemen, let's play nice!

Afterall, the whole point of this ad nauseam Wagner stuff serves to underline that Shore is continuing here a mainstream of Western classical music and film scoring (that as a genre owes tons to RW!)... even as JRRT himself is a further development of Western myth-making and adventure novels...

To whom we owe a happy 115th B-day!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Timdalf:
Now, now, gentlemen, let's play nice!

Afterall, the whole point of this ad nauseam Wagner stuff serves to underline that Shore is continuing here a mainstream of Western classical music and film scoring (that as a genre owes tons to RW!)... even as JRRT himself is a further development of Western myth-making and adventure novels...

To whom we owe a happy 115th B-day!

Timdalf

---

Oh, but Tim... in this present culture of cyber-communications, smileys can mean everything. I'm sure that was nice!

I'll weigh in just a bit on my opinion of that RotK snippet. I do hear a resemblance, if perhaps a somewhat less than striking one, to the end of "Magic Fire Music" in Die Walkure. However, it bears resemblance to Das Rheingold as well, and if one hears the version of this piece that is actually in the credits (not the one on the soundtrack album), I think it firmly places it as a reference to Das Rheingold. Or... perhaps it's an amalgamation of the two!

If any of you fellas haven't listened to this snippet in the credits, you really should pop in that DVD and hear it, as the soundtrack version is "abridged." It plays directly before the fan credits begin.

Will Sissel's piece be put in its correct place in the movie for ROTK:CR or will we be forced to listen to Liv Tyler's bit? Doug, is it too late to ask for this? I'm hoping since the Sissel version is what HS originally recorded and intended that it will be the one included. Please, please, please!!!! Put Liv Tyler's version on the rarities disc(s) if you want, but please put the original version on ROTK:CR.

Also, would "Bilbo's Song" in the EE fan club credits be included or would they go on the rumored rarities disc(s)? That is a really great piece and I'm hoping to get an official version rather then the one I ripped from my EE. Thanks!

quote:

---

Originally posted by AustinHusker:
Hey folks, kind of quiet lately so I thought I would post this question...

Will Sissel's piece be put in its correct place in the movie for ROTK:CR or will we be forced to listen to Liv Tyler's bit? Doug, is it too late to ask for this? I'm hoping since the Sissel version is what HS originally recorded and intended that it will be the one included. Please, please, please!!!! Put Liv Tyler's version on the rarities disc(s) if you want, but please put the original version on ROTK:CR.

Also, would "Bilbo's Song" in the EE fan club credits be included or would they go on the rumored rarities disc(s)? That is a really great piece and I'm hoping to get an official version rather then the one I ripped from my EE. Thanks!

-Chad

---

Am I to understand that there was another piece written for the Houses of the Healing scene? I never heard of this. In any case, I really enjoyed the Liv Tyler song that was used there.