HAH, HAH!!! I just discovered 2 more renditions of the Evil Times motive in TTT! We all know (or should know) the rendition with Sam & Frodo at Emyn Muil, but there are 2 more (and there could be more that we don't know about...yet ). When Theoden says "We will return" to Gamling in Edoras and when Grima tells Saruman that Theoden will flee to Helm's Deep...continuing as Saruman says, "Send out your warg riders" (slightly changing here). Those are the 2 other renditions. Yahoo!

I'm still workin' on Eowyn's themes. Doug, you said that there IS a theme between her and Theoden, right? Is one of the others between her and Aragorn? I know, I just need to listen to it closely and I'll figure it out. I'd just like to take the lazy way out and ask you, hah . Does she have "her own" theme, not connected to anyone else? What about a "courage" theme? I'm thinking about when she says to Grima, "Your words are poison", and, in RotK, when she picks up Merry to ride to Minas Tirith....? Hmmm?

Also, I know there is an ascending "motive" that is similar to Aragorn's theme. It's used when Eomer rides into Edoras with Theodred, when Gandalf and the 3 hunters ride up to Edoras, and when Theoden prepares for battle at Helm's Deep ("They will break upon this fortress like water on rock; Crops can be resown, homes rebuilt"; etc.) There may be more uses of this, I'm still listenin' for it (and anything else that gets my attention).

Now, Doug, what I had mentioned before about some possible connection between Minas Tirith, Into the West, and the "Theoden's Old Age" motive, well, I'm wondering about that motive...It's used first when Theoden is grieving his son's death (on trumpet), when Gandalf tells Aragorn that Theoden will need Aragorn's help (just before Gandalf leaves Edoras), and when Aragorn and Theoden are riding to Helm's Deep and Theoden talks to him about Eowyn's father being killed, and "...doomed to wait upon an old man". Is this an actual motive? It consists of 4 notes, and it sounds similar to the first 4 notes of Minas Tirith and Into the West. Thanks.

I recently learned how to play a cymbal with a bow, and now I REALLY like the music when Frodo sees the Ringwraiths at Weathertop because bowed cymbals are used. Awesome writing!!! (To bad it's not in the film, but is on the CR )

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Originally posted by Voyager-89:
George:

I totally agree with you. This is the [b]single issue I have with the FotR CR... but it is a rather glaring issue nonetheless. In all cases of the Revelation of the Wringwraiths theme, I vastly prefer the OST version (particularly the Shortcut to Mushrooms scene).
...
Whatever, but I really hope the TTT will be different... especially the Dead Marshes sequence! Imagine that choir at almost inaudible volume... uh oh... my head hurts... tears are welling up........ have to go.[/B]

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About new TTT themes: isn't there a motif for Wormtongue? I'm sure I hear one, which is primarily played on lower strings. You can hear it when Grima appears for the first time. Also in his scene with Eowyn at Theodred's bed, and also in ROTK when he shows up on Orthanc.

Also I believe that many tracks on the Fotr CC are a bit lower than the OST version. Until now I thought that it was just me, or maybe it was the general cd volume lower than that of the OST

>>>>I just discovered a new little motif from Two Towers and was wondering if it is indeed acknowldged as a motif by Mr. Shore. It plays over the part in Two Towers when Frodo, Sam, and Gollum discover the Haradrim and the Olyphants in the Forests of Ithilien, just before they are captured by Faramir and his men.<<<<

I thing there is a connection, because if you hear the music when the two mumaks get shot by faramir’s rangers and they run (you can hear it clearly at the end of the ROTK 10 minutes preview). The same theme you can hear it again in ROTK when the Mumaks charge. Actually I am waiting for this theme a long time now

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Originally posted by vdemona:
The days are going by fast! Soon, as quickly as you can say "Rohirrim" it'll be available for purchase! Can't wait.

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Rohirrim....Rohirrim........Rohirrim
Rohirrim...........Rohirrim.......
AAAAAAAAAAAAggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh......
ROHIRRIM........ROHIRRIM.......ROHIRRIM
RRROOOOOHHHHIIIIRRRRRRRRIIIIMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

Another question for Doug. Will you be including analysis of the old themes and how they evolve in the TTT into your liner notes or perhaps into the Annotated score? I remember you saying in some point that the liners of all the sets relate to eachother in this manner making references to eachother.

P.S. 1 Well Doug am I close? And if yes, Why the Banishment of Eomer is Like that, when it could be 1 more track (for explain Theodred)
And the same goes for tracks like Heir of Numenor

P.S. 2 I still think that the TTT CC is awesome, I am not complaining!

P.S. 3 sorry for my daffy English and any mistake.

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8. Night Camp 3:34

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Members price is now just $47.86! Sales rank is #100! With my gift cards in hand my final price will be $18.86 plus tax

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Originally posted by Green Knight:
It was better in the Star Wars episode I, ultimate edition 2 disk, because there were 30-40 tracks in EACH disk! So you could have immediate access to any point
I was disappointed with the combined tracks in FOTR CC
Who makes these decisions? And Who makes the OST decisions?

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If I remember some of Doug's posts in the pre-FOTR-EE fervor, one key word was "iPod-friendly."

>>>P.S. 1 Well Doug am I close?<<<

Well, nice try, but since your compilation adds up to about 52-3 minutes and the shortest cd of FotR was 58:29, and we know TTT CR is a good deal longer, I'll bet you're low by a good 10 minutes. O frabjous day!!

One other quiet reminder: Whatever may be our whines and qibbles with FotR, remember, this whole compilation is THE Definitive Version of none less than the Composer himself. He be da Boss, da Lawd of dishere Ring, yasser! So he gets the final, absolute, ultimate say on all its details.

And also, let's realize that the ONLY other musical work in all of Western music that is in this class of complexity and of these dimensions (the total will surely be at least 10 hours), is Wagner's Ring Cycle completed some 130 years ago!

So let's never forget the magnitude of this achievement and realize that we are indeed privledged to have ringside seats at its creation!

Truly, truly wonderful!

Good point, Timdalf. You're right about that...thanks for saying that. Just think, in 200 years people will look back and think, "Wow, I wish I could've been one of those blessed people, getting to have the original version, and talking to the 'note-writer' himself!" (And maybe getting together with the COMPOSER, "note-writer", and the others...) Hehehe!

I think I'll pre-order on Amazon in about 1.5 to 2 weeks.

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And also, let's realize that the ONLY other musical work in all of Western music that is in this class of complexity and of these dimensions (the total will surely be at least 10 hours), is Wagner's Ring Cycle completed some 130 years ago!

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Eh. That's if you're basing complexity off of leitmotives. There's plenty of Western music that's more interesting harmonically than the LotR trilogy.

I respect Shore's work in the film but I find it too static to listen to on its own.

(Which doesn't stop me from picking up the complete recordings anyway. I'm a sucker for historic releases)

Mr.Shore's music for LOTR might have started off because he was paid to do it, but then, any other composer would too, since after all, it began as a movie score.

It's easy to start well. Ending as well or better is the hard part. In this case (and I'm think I'm pretty much safe in saying this), Mr.Shore's commitment, passion and ownership are what make him all the more admirable and his work that much more special.

I believe that in this respect Mr.Shore is a great composer in his own right, not of course meaning to demean other equally talented and passionate composers or their work.

For holding an artist's masterpiece in your hands, his very labour of love, is simply an incredible feeling. Haven't we all had that feeling of holding that box, so little and so trifling, in our hands, and be awed by how much has been put into it? (I know I did when I first held the LOTR:CR in my hands - I remember how my hands were trembling.)

It all makes you want to respect that artist, and his work, and hold them in the highest regard.

It's about the Journey, as much as it is about the End.

Personally, I don't know what some people listen to when they refer to LotR as "static". If by static you mean well- flowing, then I'm with you.
HS is more concerned about the musical coherence and the emotional development of a scene than sync points and overbearing counterpoints. And I think that's fantastic; it sounds incredibly fresh to me in a world where about anyone tries to do John Williams.
But that's not static, that's just writing coherent pieces. To me, static is something like "Harry In Winter" from Goblet Of Fire for instance.

OK, first: if you think RW wasn't VERY concerned with his finances (as was Beethoven, for another example)... guess again. The man was always in debt, always milking his sponsors and patrons, and deservedly so! And one has to say, he never was really paid enough DM's (or Kroner or whatever!) for what he created. After all, composers also have to put butter on the table (even if it is spread too thin sometimes, a la Bilbo!!!) The laborer is worthy of his hire!! Amen!

Now, as to RW's place in music: he ranks up there with Bach and Beethoven as one of the great innovators and watersheds of Western music... AND, what he composed is really the foundation of all original film scores. Furthermore, without him you would not have the modern orchestra as we know it... His influences were immense and numerous! And his being a polymath (writer, librettist, story teller, impresario, theater builder, etc) does put him in a class by himself.

Finally, I think we shall see when Doug gives us his full analysis that there is a lot of variation and development of the LotR themes and their interrelationships are many and subtle. And to sustain a single piece of music of some 10+ hours (over several nights, of course) has not been done since Wagner's Ring, nor before for that matter! That's a fact! And had HS had the 2 and 1/2 decades to work on his opus that Wagner had (with a 12 year hiatus which gave us "Tristan" and "Meistersinger"), I have no doubt LotR would have equalled (if not surpassed) the Ring Cycle on all counts (the orchestration alone already utilizes a vastly wider palette). I am not a musicologist, nor practicing musician enough to fully appreciate the myriad subtleties in Wagner or in Shore, so my only point is that we should not let some minor details distract us from the magnitude of his achievement. The numerous discoveries that keep surfacing here are evidence that HS's LotR score has a lot more going for it than a casual first hearing can appreciate.
And this does not begin to deal with the emotional and psychological aptness and insights those themes offer... and all this within the confines of someone else's book and someone else's film version of that book... (which was not, of course, the case with Wagner's Ring where the music could be and is front and center the main focus and impetus of the work).

Timdalf

The idea of Howard Shore working on and refining the trilogy for another 5 years actually sends shivers down my spine.

PS: Barnes and Noble now have a large picture of the cover. Veeeery nice, my precious!
And it's on # 94 now.

>>>The idea of Howard Shore working on and refining the trilogy for another 5 years actually sends shivers down my spine.<<<

I hopes them is good shivers (of anticipation!), after all, each step has only been a remarkable improvement!

Hey, someday -- if the stars line up right -- he may embark upon composing a six part LotR opera cycle -- one night per book!!! Eat yer heart out, Richard! (And wouldn't that put the nice but all too abbreviated B'way style musical version in the shade! Which I enjoyed very much, but which unfortunately lacked the guts to risk going it for 2 or 3 parts a la PJ -- or RW! Tolkien's story is just too big to be condensed into one sitting. The result was newbies were bewildered and old fans were disappointed.)

Answers tonight when there's time. In the meantime Film Score Monthly has just posted another Podcast, appropriately enough taking a look at the prickly relationship that exists between the film and concert worlds.

Opportunity Makes a Thief http://media20a.libsyn.com/podcasts/fsmpodcast/FSM_Podcast_017.mp3

Oh, and Shore's score to The Departed just went up on iTunes a few minutes ago. It's night and day different from LOTR, but it's pretty darn challenging in its own right.

Back later,

Doug has written a book about the LotR trilogy scores, with god knows how much details.
The liner notes you find in the CR booklets are actually drawn from that book, only condensed to a consumer- friendly length.

I think I'll pre-order on Barnes & Noble instead of Amazon, only because it's cheaper. I hope Doug's on here right now working on his reply(s).

I’m pretty crushed for time tonight, so I’m probably only going to be able to get to a few questions on this go-round. Whatever I don’t cover tonight, I’ll get back to asap, deal?

>>>So Doug, will you tell us the name of one of the new themes that we PROBABLY don't know? >>>

Sorry, that crosses from info into content, so that’s not up for discussion at the moment, however…

>>>4.5 themes for Rohan, huh...Rohan, Eowyn's 3, and maybe that ascending motive that's occasionally used...? >>>

I will tell you that Éowyn’s third theme only plays in TTT once, so it doesn’t become notable as a theme until ROTK. However, since it’s so closely related to and clearly drawn from TTT material, it’s listed in the Two Towers’ liners/

>>>Half a Rohan theme ...
Do you mean that counterpoint melody underneath the main theme for Rohan (The Riders Of Rohan)?>>>

No, it’s a theme that relates both to Rohan and something else, musically speaking.

>>>A question for you Doug!
As your book will be released hopefully in the near future will there be material concerning the scoring process or is the book going to focus purely on the music. I mean are there any insights from the composer and director and delving into the recording sessions. I know that there is enough material in the music itself to fill a book but will there be any behind-the-scenes sort of stuff there.>>>

Yes, indeed. There while quite a bit that relates to the Making Of side of things.

>>>In FOTR:CR, track 8 (A Conspiracy Unmasked) from 4:49 - 5:00 (very strongly) and continuing uptil 5:30, which in the movie is Gandalf telling Frodo "You must leave. And leave quickly" there's this "theme" that plays along; which is repeated again in ROTK, when Gandalf tells Pippin "Peregrin Took, my lad, there is a task to be done. Another opportunity for one of the Shire-folk to prove their great worth!">>>

There’s something to this, but not quite what you have in mind. The ROTK notes will shed some light.

>>>Doug mentioned a long time ago that track 8 would be 2:54 long, and apparently some people found this info important enough to add to Wikipedia.>>>

I did? Hmm, don’t remember that. If I did say that, I think it may have been in jest, although it’s not far off at all.

>>>Guys, Doug - one more question that bothers me since the CR release:
when you compare the FOTR OST track 3, 01:37 the choir opening, and the same moment on FOTR CR, Disk 1, track 7, 06:23 - the choir on the CR is of a really low volume, even hardly to be noticed! Was it amplified for the OST or something went wrong during the CR mixing stage, what choir version is closer to the live performance? [Obviously, OST version sounds more powerful and majestic because of that boost.]>>>

As suggested in other posts, yes the choir was recorded separately from the orchestra, though this is generally how these things are done in recording sessions. In selected pieces of FOTR, there was an attempt made to better balance the choir and the orchestra, so that neither would totally dominate and so that they’d interact a bit more gracefully. As with anything, some people like that, some don’t.

>>>I just discovered a new little motif from Two Towers and was wondering if it is indeed acknowldged as a motif by Mr. Shore. It plays over the part in Two Towers when Frodo, Sam, and Gollum discover the Haradrim and the Olyphants in the Forests of Ithilien, just before they are captured by Faramir and his men. It starts at 1:43:26 on the TT EE. Is it considered a motif for the Haradrim and the Olyphants? This motif can also be heard on the OST on track 13 starting at 45 seconds (which plays in the film right when you see the Olyphants on screen). I also wonder if it is heard at any other moment in the films. If it is indeed a motif for the Haradrim and the Olyphants, then I would suspect to hear it in ROTK, but maybe its just a nice little danger motif only heard in the TT scene.>>>

This question gets asked a lot, and the answer is, no, it’s not really a theme. In that line Shore DOES set up a specific style of writing that pertains to the Mumakil, but the low string melody is not a recurring motive. In fact, it was only meant to play once in TTT – you hear it twice because of music editing. You’ll be hearing the music that was supposed to be there in the near future.

>>>Also, I know there is an ascending "motive" that is similar to Aragorn's theme. It's used when Eomer rides into Edoras with Theodred, when Gandalf and the 3 hunters ride up to Edoras, and when Theoden prepares for battle at Helm's Deep ("They will break upon this fortress like water on rock; Crops can be resown, homes rebuilt"; etc.) There may be more uses of this, I'm still listenin' for it (and anything else that gets my attention).>>>

See above for Éowyn discussion. As for this once…listen carefully to that Helm’s Deep scene… that’s actually a theme you already know, not a new one.

>>>Now, Doug, what I had mentioned before about some possible connection between Minas Tirith, Into the West, and the "Theoden's Old Age" motive, well, I'm wondering about that motive...It's used first when Theoden is grieving his son's death (on trumpet), when Gandalf tells Aragorn that Theoden will need Aragorn's help (just before Gandalf leaves Edoras), and when Aragorn and Theoden are riding to Helm's Deep and Theoden talks to him about Eowyn's father being killed, and "...doomed to wait upon an old man". Is this an actual motive? It consists of 4 notes, and it sounds similar to the first 4 notes of Minas Tirith and Into the West. Thanks.>>>

Similar, but not really a theme.

>>>I recently learned how to play a cymbal with a bow, and now I REALLY like the music when Frodo sees the Ringwraiths at Weathertop because bowed cymbals are used. Awesome writing!!! (To bad it's not in the film, but is on the CR )>>>

That’s a Shore specialty. It’s all over the Army of the Dead music… though if you really want to hear Shore go nuts with it, take a listen to Seven.

Ok, my brain is fried. More as soon as time allows!

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That’s a Shore specialty. It’s all over the Army of the Dead music… though if you really want to hear Shore go nuts with it, take a listen to Seven.

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Yep,"Harry in winter" is a static,quite annoying waltz.

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I agree;; it is very static and goes nowhere... but it actually is in 4/4 time, meaning it isn't a waltz.

It's a shame.... that theme really could have been great in the hands of a different composer.