quote:

---

The strange way Aragorn comes in singing at the end reminds me of what an awkward moment that was in the film.

---

Actually, I think this is a bone-chilling moment. Aragorn accepts his heritage, and finally another little bit of sung poetry that was so prominent in the books.<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree gkgyver. It is actually very fitting for Aragorn to utter the sentence as it is in the book and also it gives an underlying meaning when those words are sung. King was in essence the high priest of Eru to Númenorians and also to Gondorians and was the only one who could perform the yearly sacred rituals (Erukyermë, Erulaitalë and Eruhantalë)on behalf of the people. Aragorn's singing has almost a liturgical quality to it and also to me it enhances this side of his new role as a returned king. Oh well I tend to think about these things way too deeply but that was my two cents on the matter.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
Indeed, it's a great moment, and true to Tolkien's writings. If only Mortensen could sing... but his performance was more or less matched by the soloist at the Symphony concert in Vienna a few weeks ago.

---

Marian's actually getting at what I'm talking about here. I like the idea, but I'm just being honest about how I felt in regards to its execution. In all of Shore's trilogy of scores, I was waiting for a mature male voice to make an appearance. Shore's music covers the gamut of other vocal groupings, but not an adult solo male and the gravity that can bring. (I'm reminded of the 'grief' interlude from INFERNAL AFFAIRS II, which is one of the few film scores I've come across which dared to use a classically trained male voice - in that case a countertenor of fairly unbelievable range. To think what a voice like that could have done with a 'lament' montage of the Pelennor Fields.)

Viggo Mortensen's voice is so lightweight, and for that to be the moment when the music crosses the diegesis - garnering more attention than the superb 10 minutes of music around it - is unfortunate. (I wasn't keen on his source music 'melody' - if it can be called that - for Beren and Luthien.) The trick is that I suppose it wouldn't have been credible for an English-speaking actor to suddenly burst forth with a much better voice than their own... this was a deception of form the musical era carried off much better (thinking of how much of SOUND OF MUSIC isn't the very fine actor, Christopher Plummer). It's something Indian movies do very well too - have a score track playing, which suddenly the actors will start singing to (or even playing along with, in the recent WATER).

I like the appearance of the Wagner, not because it ties to two musical epics, but because it hints at a slightly more interesting harmonic world than a lot of film music gets to demonstrate. Which is why I'd like more of it.

[Message edited by franz_conrad on 06-01-2007]

And lovely though it is... I don't really like how it ties Tolkien's Ring to Wagner's. Regardless of the fact that Tolkien's "both rings are round" is a vast understatement (there are too many parallels to list), they should still be viewed as two separate, "unrelated" entities.>>>

Well, not to go too far off into the deep end again... I am of the opinion that they are hardly "unrelated". Starting with the opening of The Silmarillion (which is a prose version of the opening pages of Das Rheingold in too many ways to be purely accidental, even if JRRT never admitted it).

I am sure someone could write a quite lengthy and detailed book that would make a point that LotR is in many ways a counterpoise to Wagner's Ring (and probably not only that work of RW's)... Yes, yes I know they have the same sources, but I think that does not cover it and that it goes far beyond that and JRRT could not have been ignorant of Wagner's Ring. Some of the best performances in the Golden Age of Wagnerian singing (the 30's) at Covent Garden could not have but reached his ears. Wagner was the reigning operatic experience between the wars.

I think there is much to be gained from comparing and contrasting the oeuvre (let alone the 2 Rings) of both. In fact I think the contrast is what JRRT was driving at in his famous remark about their both being round and there the resemblance ends!

(And I know some very astute fans of both)

And I think Maestro Shore is on the right track to hint at ties (and also at dissonances between them).

Well, it works, as they say... it is a satisfying resolution that seems right even if one has never heard of, or heard, Wagner. And I think there are more than a few other musical moments that seem reminiscent of Wagner moments...:
The two thumping chords that seem to be associated with Sauron remind me of the two harsh dissonance blasts following the murder of Siegfried.

I have been meaning to note these echoes when I hear them... e.g., there is some moment (I think it is the very end of the 11th track of CD 2 of TTT) that reminds me of a very high string passage in the Prelude to Tristan...

There are probably not a few others...

And this is no reflection on Maestro Shore's orginality... Just as there are bits of Wagner that hark back to Weber or Berlioz and, of course, Beethoven (not to mention intentional homages like the Tabulatur motiv in Meistersinger that imitates Handel).
All of Western classical music is really one great tradition (see the book by Derek Cooke, The Language of Music) and especially in a mythic saga cycle whose literary source has Wagner ties, how could one in good conscience NOT have a musical homage or two or three to RW, the musical myth poet par excellence! It would be foolish, artificial and perhaps even dishonest to attempt not to have them, I have to think!

Another example: Wagner's poetry (esp. in Tristan) has obvious debts to Goethe and to Novalis, so again, Western cultural monuments of this magnitude cannot nor should be isolated from their context.

And the film version of LotR, like it or not, is a major cultural monument that will live on as long as films are shown!!

Timdalf

But note that Arwen's Song was "originally" intended for Arwen's Vision scene (if I've got my chronology of hodge-podge correct, and was replaced by the current piece since it seemed out of place that Arwen's should sing while she herself has a vision of her future), so there might be a slight chance that Arwen's Song WILL make it in THIS place.

However, I'd be content as long as I got all 3 pieces of music on disc.

EDIT: (Meaning the current piece for Arwen's Vision scene, then Arwen's Song, and finally Sissel's Piece).

In the last thread you said:
>>>FYI, the shutting issue is related to shipping not manufacturing, so I’m afraid there’s little the production side can do short of requesting that handlers take a little more care… which is being done.<<<

I also noticed that FOTR has a round bind whereas TTT has a flat bind. Anyone else notice this?

ruckus

quote:

---

Originally posted by ruckus:
[B]I also noticed that FOTR has a round bind whereas TTT has a flat bind. Anyone else notice this?

ruckus

---

I did, and it looks freakin' stupid on the shelf. Arrrrgggh!

See...these little problems only us film music fans can have...on, boy!

And additionally, is it just my copy, or is the actual box (when the covr is opened - the box that contains the CDs and the booklet) smaller than FOTR:CRs? I noticed since I could actually place the TTT booklet in the FOTR box, but not vice versa (but plz don't ask me why I tried doing that ).

And then there's the blue ribbon, which is definitely shorter than the red ribbon.

And additionally, is it just my copy, or is the actual box (when the covr is opened - the box that contains the CDs and the booklet) smaller than FOTR:CRs? I noticed since I could actually place the TTT booklet in the FOTR box, but not vice versa (but plz don't ask me why I tried doing that ).

And then there's the blue ribbon, which is definitely shorter than the red ribbon.

And additionally, is it just my copy, or is the actual box (when the covr is opened - the box that contains the CDs and the booklet) smaller than FOTR:CRs? I noticed since I could actually place the TTT booklet in the FOTR box, but not vice versa (but plz don't ask me why I tried doing that ).

And then there's the blue ribbon, which is definitely shorter than the red ribbon.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Ware:
Just to confuse matters, my FOTR has a flat bind and TTT has a round one.

---

Wanna swap?

My FOTR is round, the one I got for a dear friend was flat.
My TTT is flat, and the ones I see in stores are round.

quote:

---

<HR size=1>Originally posted by gkgyver:
As long as the music isn't flat, I don't really care.

My FOTR is round, the one I got for a dear friend was flat.
My TTT is flat, and the ones I see in stores are round.

---

This gets stranger by the minute! For the record, my TTT is flat and my FotR is rounded, and both close decently (although TTT less so).

quote:

---

Originally posted by gkgyver:

My TTT is flat, and the ones I see in stores are round.

---

You see the set in storesß What kind of freakish country are you living in? I've never seen the set once!

This sounds sad but it's really an experience to see shelves stocked to capacity with FOTR and TTT CRs.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Earl:
And additionally, is it just my copy, or is the actual box (when the covr is opened - the box that contains the CDs and the booklet) smaller than FOTR:CRs? I noticed since I could actually place the TTT booklet in the FOTR box, but not vice versa (but plz don't ask me why I tried doing that ).

---

I don't have that problem thankfully.

I had been wondering about the binding since I got TTT and since no one brought it up here I assumed it was as a result of the shipping etc. Thanks for the responses.

YOU HEARD ME?! [u]YES?[/u]

Good.

quote:

---

Originally posted by orbital:
Ruhig Brauner...

---

I can't. Not after something enormous as this!

I think it's been explained before that the piece on the EE DVD is Shore's first draft for the "Ford" scene in Fellowship as the Nazgul are overcome by the waves.

I believe Doug confirmed that it was never completed/fully recorded. It does however sound like prime material for the rarities disc.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alan_manc:
CK,

I think it's been explained before that the piece on the EE DVD is Shore's first draft for the "Ford" scene in Fellowship as the Nazgul are overcome by the waves.

I believe Doug confirmed that it was never completed/fully recorded. It does however sound like prime material for the rarities disc.

[Message edited by alan_manc on 06-07-2007]

---

I thought as much. Here's what Doug/Howard have to say:

Shore wrote several versions of the Flight to the Ford chase. Originally the piece concluded with a brief spate of stillness followed by mounting strings and chorus phrases (set to a text titled “Flood at the Ford of Bruinen”) and a timpani statement of the Mordor Outline. This take was abandoned before the chorus was ever recorded. In its place, Shore recorded an ending that included a wild panic of aleatoric French horns heard just as the Wraiths reach the river’s edge.

In the film, Peter Jackson decided to use Shore’s first approach, but to dissolve the mu-sic as the river’s waters rushed in. (No attempt was ever made to record the choral line once it was decided that passage was not to be in-cluded in the final film.) “Pete liked the quiet,” Shore recalls, “just the sound of the standoff.”

Heard on this CD is Shore’s preferred setting, including the French horns.

Well, I can't tell whether the chorus is singing something about the Ford of Bruinen ( ), but it's one place where this piece of music would perfectly fit. However, the quote says that the chorus was never recorded, so...the questions remains standing.

Al

Update: I've just listened to it again and there is no doubt. You hear the Flight to the Ford cue right from the "Revelation of the Ringwraiths" theme and then get the entire alternate ford scene cue and its un-interrupted. If the choir was never recorded then it must be synth.

(Also from 7:38 to 8:28 on the Costume Design section, there's unused music that has not made it on the CR. I guess it's Saruman-related... )

Where the hell is Doug?!

Between drafts, he's working on his book and discussing the rarities disc(s) with Howard Shore.

God, I hope it will appear on the Rarities Disc - I'd even take it with the synth chorus (I won't have much choice anyway...)

Oh, and for the record: My FotR is round and my TT is flat and won't close properly eighter...
I wonder, whether RotK will be round or flat

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swashbuckler:
My TTT was flat as well, but it got silicon implants.

---

My slow replies have a unique justification this time… I just had surgery and the few moments a day I’ve been able to clearly focus through the darn haze of pain meds have gone towards notes rather than message boards. Blech!

Remember to lift with your legs, kids!

Anyway, enough of my irritating whining, on with the Qs and As.

>>>Ah-ha, so the bonus disc will be published separately. Together with your book, or will this be a release for its own?>>>

I’d love to spill the beans on this one, but you’ll have to wait a bit longer for details. You may be on to something, however…

>>>Very exciting!!! But just for the sake of clarity ... when you say, "No tracking occurs," you mean in the upcoming C.R. set, correct? Because I'm certain tracking does occur here in the finished film -- with the Fourth Age of Gondor theme being tracked in from the coronation scene. Needless to say, I'm sure the version of the FAoG theme Shore intended for this scene will be revelatory!>>>

Ok, I owe you all some clarification here regarding the Fourth Age of Gondor theme and the fall of Barad-dûr. (And I apologize for the lack of clarity… I was typing too quickly!) The Fourth Age of Gondor theme IS meant to play under the fall of the tower. It is supposed to be there. However, the version you hear in the film IS tracked in… this is the coronation version of the Fourth Age of Gondor… which means you will hear the exact same recording a few minutes later. There is, however, a setting of this theme used in Shore’s original composition, a setting you’ve not heard before. It’s not radically different, compositionally, but the music moves in and out of the theme much more gracefully. This, the unedited version of Shore’s composition, is what you’ll hear on the ROTK: CR. Does that make a little more sense?

So why was the same theme tracked over itself in the film? I honestly do not know. As those of you inclined to create homemade isolated scores will discover, Shore’s composition fits perfectly. Gloriously, even.

>>>once conducted the full Score of "The Fellowship of the Ring" together with the movie (inclusive sound and speech). Kind of a live soundtrack, though. He liked it very much and said, that he would like to do it, or something comparable, again. So, who knows!>>>

Boy, that sounds good! I’d like to see that!

>>>With this in mind, I shall herewith put forth the motion that Doug include all of us from these LotR mega threads in a small corner of his book. How about that?>>>

Sounds good, just send your $50.00 registration fee to…

Oops, pain meds getting the better of me again!

>>>The last thing I found was a "We’ll see, we’ll see…" from Doug so I just pose the question for clarification if Tyler's "Houses Of Healing" will be on the ROTK:CR?>>>

It will. As will, it seems, Sissel’s. Clarification later, if you don’t mind.

Oh and fear not, all of Renée’s work will be represented as well. You won’t lose anything.

>>>This very minute I am covering the J.R.R. Tolkien documentary on FotR:EE DVD 3, and when the discussion revolves about evil, there is some ABSO-****ING-LUTELY GREAT music (urgent-sounding staccato choral stuff) playing for a few seconds (from around 17:40 to 18:00 min.). I nearly scoregasmed! Thing is, it doesn't sound like Howard Shore wrote it, but as far as I know, his music was the only one used for all the appendices. Right? RIGHT?>>>

I *believe* what you are hearing here is the unused Flight to the Ford (hard to tell under the rest of the racket). And fear not, though we still haven’t begun to dig through the unused music archives, this is right at the top of the list. We’ll begin the process in just a few weeks.

So you promise not to hit me now, right?

>>>I believe Doug confirmed that it was never completed/fully recorded. It does however sound like prime material for the rarities disc.>>>

Doesn’t mean it wasn’t “mostly” recorded, however! Come one, I get to keep you guys on your toes just a little!

>>>Right, yes, I listened to it again, and, although it's hard to hear, you can discern the Mordor Outline beneath the choral staccatos. And it must be bloody good synths, because the chorus sounds quite real. However, since they are synths, it's logical that I couldn't hear any lyrics, as all they can do is: EE-EE-AA-AA-EE-OO-OO-AA-EE-OO.>>>

FYI, there is a complete lyric associated with this composition, and we’ll make sure you get this too.

>>>(Also from 7:38 to 8:28 on the Costume Design section, there's unused music that has not made it on the CR. I guess it's Saruman-related... )>>>

I think this is a draft of the forest chase music. Again, I’ll have better info for you in a few weeks.

Ok, gang, got an FSM Podcast to tend to.

Take care. More soon, I promise.

Use well the days,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Earl:
Doug is hunched over his laptop furiously typing away at the next draft of liner notes while listening to ROTK:CR.

Between drafts, he's working on his book and discussing the rarities disc(s) with Howard Shore.

---

As if LOTR is all Doug's got going. Don't forget this:
http://www.moviemusic.com/mb/Forum1/HTML/015636.html

...which reminds me I meant to listen to those clips. See ya later.