In the MFTM LotR special issue, Howard Shore says he used all kinds of trumpets for the scores, C, Bb, F and Rotary Valve trumpets.
I've recently bought a book about orchestration, and it mentions that F trumpets are very rarely used nowadays (this book of course was released 80 years ago) because they are larger and have significantly less flexibility than modern trumpets, which aim for chromatic flexibility. But the book also mentions that it was a shame because those F trumpets have a strikingly brilliant and rousing character.

Now, my question is: are those the same trumpets Howard Shore used? If so, could you name us some specific cues where they can be heard?
Also, I know that he used Rotary Valve trumpets all throughout "The Destruction Of The Ring" and "The Destruction Of Mordor". He mentions they also have a very specific quality, they sound more ancient.
What exactly makes them different?

And at last, one personal issue. I'm currently working on, well, I would describe it as a LotR Symphony, similar to the one that is currently being performed, only with thematic concert suites.
Right now, I have five parts:

Fellowship of the Ring:
I - The One Ring (6:19)
II - The Shire (7:04)
III - The Shadow Of The Past (7:39)
IV - A Shortcut To Mushrooms (ca. 7:30)

The Two Towers:
II - The Taming Of Smeagol (ca. 6:00)

Anyway, I finished another part:

I thought DR. SHORE remixed Clint Mansell's Requiem For A Dream, but now I've read on various sites (audible beauty, for instance): 'Requiem For A Tower - by The Ant Farm (or Simone Benyacar / Dan Nielsen / Veigar Mairgersson)'

Can anybody clear this up??

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Originally posted by Sabsi:
Question about Requiem For A Tower:

I thought DR. SHORE remixed Clint Mansell's Requiem For A Dream, but now I've read on various sites (audible beauty, for instance): 'Requiem For A Tower - by The Ant Farm (or Simone Benyacar / Dan Nielsen / Veigar Mairgersson)'

Can anybody clear this up??

[Message edited by Sabsi on 06-29-2007]

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As I understand it, the producers of the early Two Towers trailers sought out a group to remix this piece into an LotR-worthy epic style, and it definitely wasn't Howard Shore.

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It's getting awfully quiet here.

Anyway, I finished another part:

VIII - The Fellowship Of The Ring (4:39)

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Am I to understand that you have some sort of access to the written scores, G.K.? How else would you create this alternate "LotR Symphony"?

Edit: Maybe you just mean you're merging the actual *recordings* instead? Did I misunderstand?

quoting doug (who, in turn, is quoting the question that he's answering):

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>>>>And what about the re-recording of the cue from Clint Mansell's Requiem for a Dream that was featured in the trailer for The Two Towers?>>>

Howard Shore had nothing to do with the Mansell piece, and so it’s not a part of this set.

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The quote of Doug's reply was quite convincing

btw... any of you with SMME associations (you know who you are...) I just got a notice that the site would be deleted for inactivity. Apparently I did something (clicked on a link) that saved it from deletion. But if there's anything on there that you want, get it now. It could be gone (and most likely will be gone) at some point.

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Am I to understand that you have some sort of access to the written scores, G.K.? How else would you create this alternate "LotR Symphony"?

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No, no written scores (unfortunately!), just the Complete Recordings, and the available conductor's scores to check some musical details.

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Also, I know that he used Rotary Valve trumpets all throughout "The Destruction Of The Ring" and "The Destruction Of Mordor". He mentions they also have a very specific quality, they sound more ancient.
What exactly makes them different?[/B]

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It's not the rotary valves that makes them sound different from their piston-valve brethren, but rather the more conical bore of the instrument. What this means is that if you took a standard piston-valve trumpet and a rotary valve trumpet, straightened them out until they were just one long tube with a bell at one end, and placed them side-by-side, you'd find that the tubing of the rotary-valve trumpet starts to widen toward the bell sooner than the piston-valve one does. Thus, the rotary-valve trumpet (which is standard in European orchestras) is more "cone" shaped than the piston-valve one (which tends to be standard in American orchestras).

Now, if you did the same thing with a cornet and stood it beside the rotary-valve trumpet, you'd find that the cornet is even MORE conical than the rotary trumpet. And a flugelhorn would be even more conical than a cornet! Thus, the more conical the "bore" (e.g., the entire length of the tubing), the more mellow or darker the sound. (A French horn is EXTREMELY conical, which gives that instrument its uniquely dark tone.)

Some conductors, when conducting American orchestras, will request that rotary trumpets be used for certain repertoire. Hope that helps!

Boy, you guys are getting so good at covering the questions on your own, I’ve got little to offer other than updates. But worry not, there’s plenty to detail in that department.

Second things first, however… let me once again thank everyone who sent or posted well wishes regarding my recovery. Save for an occasional bit of soreness, I’m pretty much back to fighting shape!

And onwards…

>>>And for Doug, just a thought. Did you acknowledge sometime back and somewhere here that there would be a slipcase to kepp all the CRs in? If yes, and assuming it will be released alongwith ROTK:CR, and since the rarities will probably be released sometime later with your book, please please don't forget to leave space for the rarities box (if it is a box :P) or else it'll feel lonely up on the shelf

If such a case is in the works for the music recordings I wonder what the color will be and if its design will be a little more imaginative? Doug?>>>

The slipcase continues to dwell in the realm of distinct possibilities. Personally, I think it will happen. As for specific designs, however, nothing has been cooked up yet. This doesn’t constitute a lack of forward progress however, it’s just quite early on.

>>>See the question posted on this page: http://www.soundtrackinfo.com/ost.asp?soundtrack=5257>>>

Just FYI, we will finally tackle the Gandalf’s Farewell’s figure in the ROTK notes. Time to pay off the tease!

>>>In the MFTM LotR special issue, Howard Shore says he used all kinds of trumpets for the scores, C, Bb, F and Rotary Valve trumpets.
I've recently bought a book about orchestration, and it mentions that F trumpets are very rarely used nowadays (this book of course was released 80 years ago) because they are larger and have significantly less flexibility than modern trumpets, which aim for chromatic flexibility. But the book also mentions that it was a shame because those F trumpets have a strikingly brilliant and rousing character.

Now, my question is: are those the same trumpets Howard Shore used? If so, could you name us some specific cues where they can be heard?
Also, I know that he used Rotary Valve trumpets all throughout "The Destruction Of The Ring" and "The Destruction Of Mordor". He mentions they also have a very specific quality, they sound more ancient.>>>

F trumpets do indeed have a darker tone than C or Bb trumpets, and it’s that tone in specific that drew Shore to the sound. You can hear these trumpets in a good deal of the Gondor music. I’d have to double check, but I believe you’re hearing them in the Lighting of the Beacons sequence.

Thanks very much to Jaquandor for his detailed description of the instruments’ mechanics. It’s good to see you again, Jaq.

This one is ported over from email as I thought it may be of interest to all of you (though I don’t have much an answer to give, currently).

>>>Ok, Quick question, I read that "Houses of Healing" and "Arwen's Song" (performed by Sissel) would be on the CR of the ROTK. You stated that you would give more information later on the subject. On "Arwen's Song" is this supposed to be apart of the end credits of the soundtrack or will it be something mixed in with the movie portion of the soundtrack.>>>

Yes, the plan still calls for both Arwen’s Song and Sissel’s song to be included on this set. As for placement and / or editing, I’m afraid I still have no comment only because the decision hasn’t yet been made. There have been a couple of different edits offered up for perusal, and there are more to come. I have a pretty solid guess as to how this will end up being presented, but we’ll have to hold a bit before it becomes solid.

>>>I thought DR. SHORE remixed Clint Mansell's Requiem For A Dream, but now I've read on various sites (audible beauty, for instance): 'Requiem For A Tower - by The Ant Farm (or Simone Benyacar / Dan Nielsen / Veigar Mairgersson)'

As I understand it, the producers of the early Two Towers trailers sought out a group to remix this piece into an LotR-worthy epic style, and it definitely wasn't Howard Shore.>>>

The excellent and admirable board members have already answered this, but I should also like to note that Shore DID score the ROTK trailer. I recently ran across the discs from these recording sessions… which leads me to the “updates” section!

I just got back from NY yesterday afternoon from a genuinely amazing trip to Shore’s offices. He and I took a good four to five hours and ran through the entire current edit for ROTK in the listening room. It is shaping up amazingly. There’s still one last bit of unused music waiting to be tracked down, but decisions are now being made about specific track breakdowns, etc. It’s really close now, and it’s ridiculously affecting and beautiful.

The rest of my time was dedicated to sorting through the unused music archives. This is a genuinely massive task. There are thousands of CDs worth of material… and about 3 months worth of continuous audio. Everything recorded was saved for all three films. The tough part is sorting through what exactly is in there in order to decide what is interesting. You don’t want to hear 13 takes of a Bag End cue where the third oboe missed a note (no, there’s no third oboe, I’m just for-instance-ing ), but you do want to hear the original version of the prologue that included the… well, I can’t say right now, but I will say that my heart skipped a beat when I found this!

If you will, remember that the LOTR scores were being composed concurrently with the film’s editing. This is why so many sessions were scheduled. Shore would often have to tweak or completely rewrite compositions as the film changed. This means there are alternate versions of nearly everything! Now some of these alternates have nothing more than one crescendo changed, which is interesting as a curiosity, but not really worthy of disc space. But there are some revelatory differences in the alternates as well; radically different approaches to mood, orchestration and thematic structure. In some cases there are entirely different compositions that matched different edits of the films.

If you get to the end of ROTK:CR and think you’ve heard all the LOTR music there is to be heard, think again!

>>>Gotta question for ya: will the music for the bonus disc be on just one disc or is it possible that it will be on more than one disc? I know...I'm greedy and lustful for LotR music!>>>

And this is now the big question! There is SO much material that I’m just trying to figure out how best to present it. This past weekend I felt like I heard LOTR 4… or maybe 4 and 5. I’m quite certain you will all feel the same elation… but I really need to sit down and figure out exactly how much disc space will be required to showcase everything that should be showcased. That’s the other trick, I’m still not done digging through the archives!

So this is an on-going thing. It may take a little bit, but I will certainly keep you updated. I know this comes of as yet another tease, but I thought you may be interested in these current events. And really, I just wanted to share my glee from this past weekend. Despite the fact that I can’t go into details, some of these discoveries made my heart pound. I can’t wait to share them with you.

As always, stay tuned!

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...but you do want to hear the original version of the prologue that included the… well, I can’t say right now, but I will say that my heart skipped a beat when I found this!

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What? What? WHAT? The Ringspell?!

John Douglas Adams, I love you more than you'll ever want to know, but don't make me get my hammer and come over there!

Ahem...sorry, got carried away. But once again, I do feel the need to get a pod and swap bodies with you...

Thanks for the update, Doug! Another pint added to the list.

Christian

PS: Did you ever get around to the snare drum bit?

[Message edited by Christian Kühn on 07-02-2007]

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but you do want to hear the original version of the prologue that included the… well, I can’t say right now, but I will say that my heart skipped a beat when I found this!

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Oookay, hold it!

Now you're just being mean!

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Originally posted by Doug Adams:

And this is now the big question! There is SO much material that I’m just trying to figure out how best to present it. This past weekend I felt like I heard LOTR 4… or maybe 4 and 5.

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I just had visions of Homer Simpson drooling at the mouth saying something like "mmmm rarilicious".

Well I think there's nothing for it but a full CR-scale rarities release with the full liner-notes etc. Here's hoping.

Thanks for the great update,
ruckus

OK better settle down now...

And the hardest part is that we have months of waiting to do! Nothing compared to the task of selecting and compiling this wonderful music for us so we must endure with humility (if not silently)

The rest of my time was dedicated to sorting through the unused music archives. This is a genuinely massive task. There are thousands of CDs worth of material… and about 3 months worth of continuous audio. ...... but you do want to hear the original version of the prologue that included the… well, I can’t say right now, but I will say that my heart skipped a beat when I found this!

If you get to the end of ROTK:CR and think you’ve heard all the LOTR music there is to be heard, think again!

...... This past weekend I felt like I heard LOTR 4… or maybe 4 and 5. I’m quite certain you will all feel the same elation… but I really need to sit down and figure out exactly how much disc space will be required to showcase everything that should be showcased. That’s the other trick, I’m still not done digging through the archives!

Despite the fact that I can’t go into details, some of these discoveries made my heart pound. I can’t wait to share them with you.
.....................

Wow..........Doug, you have an amazing job!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Doug Adams:

>>>And for Doug, just a thought. Did you acknowledge sometime back and somewhere here that there would be a slipcase to kepp all the CRs in? If yes, and assuming it will be released alongwith ROTK:CR, and since the rarities will probably be released sometime later with your book, please please don't forget to leave space for the rarities box (if it is a box :P) or else it'll feel lonely up on the shelf

If such a case is in the works for the music recordings I wonder what the color will be and if its design will be a little more imaginative? Doug?>>>

The slipcase continues to dwell in the realm of distinct possibilities. Personally, I think it will happen. As for specific designs, however, nothing has been cooked up yet. This doesn’t constitute a lack of forward progress however, it’s just quite early on.
<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

YAY

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>
but you do want to hear the original version of the prologue that included the…
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...extended choral piece of The Battle of Dagorlad?? (that was presented on the 2001 OST of FOTR?)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>
>>>Gotta question for ya: will the music for the bonus disc be on just one disc or is it possible that it will be on more than one disc? I know...I'm greedy and lustful for LotR music!>>>

And this is now the big question! There is SO much material that I’m just trying to figure out how best to present it. This past weekend I felt like I heard LOTR 4… or maybe 4 and 5. I’m quite certain you will all feel the same elation… but I really need to sit down and figure out exactly how much disc space will be required to showcase everything that should be showcased. That’s the other trick, I’m still not done digging through the archives!
<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seriously, please feel free to release as many CDs with alternates... we're just waiting to devour (and be devoured by) the music. Hmmm... maybe it will be a boxset like each CR, with 3 CDs worth of alternate writing...

It'll probably be a bit steep and I probably won't even be able to buy it in the near future (what with ROTK:CR and your book), but it'll be good to know it's out there anyway

EDIT: ruckus seems to be on the right track with the rarities, at least as crazy fans go...(I'm totally with u ruckus)

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Originally posted by Ge0rge:
forget the CDs, Doug, dvd-audio rarities will bring us the necessary hours of scoregasm!

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But of course, part of releasing the alternates as a CR set implies that there should be an audio DVD with ALL the tracks in superior sound How greedy can we fans get...

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Originally posted by ruckus:

I just had visions of Homer Simpson drooling at the mouth saying something like "mmmm rarilicious".

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The interesting thing is that this will apparently not be the official Lord Of The Rings Symphony, as conceived by Howard Shore, but a different arrangement.

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
I'm not sure what the schedule of all these releases will be like.
I always assumed that the book would be released a couple of days or weeks before the Complete Recordings, and the rarities disc either simultaneously to this, or together with the book, which would mean a release after the Complete Recordings are out.

But after hearing that there is so much material to press on disc, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they decided to bring out ROTK first, in order to be able to focus on these alternate recordings afterwards, and aim for a release in mid- 2008.

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I am very interested to know how large the Rarities release will be and how viable it would be to release it separately from the CRs. I think the sales would not be exactly astronomical as one has to be on certain level of fanatism (our level to be exact) to buy a set of nothing but alternates and recorded concepts that never made it to the final cut. That if anything has a marginal group of listeners, no offense. I am all for releasing rarities but record company might not see a large Rarities release as a necessity they can afford.

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...but you do want to hear the original version of the prologue that included the… well, I can’t say right now, but I will say that my heart skipped a beat when I found this!

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If you get to the end of ROTK:CR and think you’ve heard all the LOTR music there is to be heard, think again!

And this is now the big question! There is SO much material that I’m just trying to figure out how best to present it. This past weekend I felt like I heard LOTR 4… or maybe 4 and 5. I’m quite certain you will all feel the same elation… but I really need to sit down and figure out exactly how much disc space will be required to showcase everything that should be showcased.......

.......As always, stay tuned!>>>>>>

Hello Doug!!!!!!

Why not release the rarities as a LOTR 4 & 5 set, with 3 to 6 Audio Discs, and with 2 DVDs in 5.1 surround sound (as the other sets are!!!!

How about the current schedule of LOTR: ROTK.....do you think it is now down to between 3 to 4 months until it reaches our hands then ears!!

Melson, when I click on the 'What's New' link, the page begins to load but I then get diverted to another site altogether. I tried emailing you but your email bounced back immediately with no explanation.

Hope all is well.

edit: On second thought, perhaps it didn't bounce. It looks like an auto reply but I've never gotten that message before from you so I'm still perplexed.

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Eh?

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Originally posted by gkgyver:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Eh?
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Huh?

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