Now that would be heavenly. Unfathomably so.>>>

Indeed! I suppose the only way to do this economically (given the cost of printing a full orchestral score(s) of over 10 hours length would be either via the net on a set of pdf files (maybe one per track) to be downloaded at a reasonable (!)fee... or a DVD or CD-ROM...

A decade ago someone by the name of Monte Stone issued a CD-ROM of the sound of the entire Solti Wagner Ring with libretto, piano-vocal score, commentaries, and whatnot! That was published by an outfit called The Media Cafe. Unfortunately the poor guy lost his shirt doing it! But by now I guess a whole orchestral score could be crammed into some format!

Timdalf

The only chance I had is exactly four years ago, when Howard Shore invited some friends and I (me?) to the rehearsal of the first Fellowship concert in London. The only thing I remember -the entire evening was experienced by me in some kind of haze!- is: Jesus, that's a weird transcription of the choral lyrics. And asking really dumb geek-questions.

I should never have bothered him.

The biggest obstacles would be whether an orchestral score of the Complete Recordings even exists (it may just consists of a very large stack of left-over sketches from the original recording sessions which would have to be edited themselves). And also, even if such a finished score exists, the process of scanning it into digital form would be quite a costly labor.

But afterall, I doubt if there need be any worries about someone doing a pirate performance from it!! To assemble the forces (over 100 in the orchestra, plus large choruses, plus soloists) plus rehearsal time, plus the sheer length of the thing (who would attend a series of three concerts in sufficient numbers to warrant the outlay!?) The whole thing would be a mammoth (or is it a Mumakil!) undertaking. Not that I wouldn't LOVE to see (hear!) it happen, esp. with M. Shore at the helm!!

Excerpts would be no threat, since the Symphony already has that market cornered!

Oh well, they laughed at Wagner's dreams until he opened Bayreuth in 1876 and crowned heads and the glitterati of the music and art world all came flocking in!!!

Hmmm... THE LORD OF THE RINGS FESTIVAL.... "But in dreams... I ca-an hear your tune..."

I guess I better settle down: the Final Installment isn't even out yet!!! ;-)
Timdalf

Do you mean written but not recorded, or written but not set to the film?

Hmmm...I'm not sure I understand. What I was referring to was, for example, Dwarvish Interlude, and probably more music like that. Now that you mention "written but not recorded" and "written but not set to the film", I'm not sure what category this belongs to. But I hope you understand what I'm talking about.

>>>And hey Doug, How u doin? Seems I didnt miss much, just a switch to another new thread.>>>

I’m good, thanks, as I hope is everyone else as well. I’m constantly bemoaning the busy schedule right now, but that’s probably more due to the bleak midwinter than to anything else!

Oh! I'm dreading it. My company is bringing me to the US for training and I'm a bit freaked out with the weather as it thus stands [ ]

Hey! Anyone in the Philadelphia area?

>>>By the way, my good ol' bro had ordered TTT:CR on Dec. 18th from BnN, 14 day delivery. I still haven't got it. Any ideas anyone?>>>

I would definitely contact B&N at this point. Did they send any indication that package had shipped? Can you track it?

Oh! Tracking just says "Shipped". But I have a feeling it's the Indian customs office that's holding it up. But I really should get in touch with BnN. Thanks for the concern Doug.

--------------------------------------------

And your book is going to be a bestseller, don't you worry. It would even without the multimedia content. And take your time Doug, who said the book and ROTK:CR have to be released together? (At least no one I know [ ]) This is a landmark & once in a lifetime release for LOTR and especially for you, and if it takes time to get done, there isn't a doubt it'll be that much better when it does get out.

So do your best (as I'm sure I don't need to tell you) and we'll be waiting to hold your book in our hands whenever the time is right for it.

quote:

---

The biggest obstacles would be whether an orchestral score of the Complete Recordings even exists (it may just consists of a very large stack of left-over sketches from the original recording sessions which would have to be edited themselves). And also, even if such a finished score exists, the process of scanning it into digital form would be quite a costly labor.

---

• One of the things I went ga-ga over abou these two sets has been the Advanced Resolution tracks. There is no comparison when it comes to such moments as "The Wolves of Isengard" or the Helm's Deep sequence. I was wondering if there was ever any talk about releasing the original albums, which are, as acknowledged, a very different listening experiences from the CRs, in that format as well.

• Would it be too much to hope that the prospective "rarities" disc might be doubled in DVD-Audio as well?

• You've discussed multimedia content as a supplement to your (eagerly awaited) book. Now there is a lot of speculation about what this might mean... would this possibly be taking the place of said "rarities" disc, or would it be in addition to it?

• How long is my Warg parking permit good for?

• What is the fastest animal on Middle-Earth?

• Should I fake my orgasms on the Tol Eressëa Shuttle?

Pity.

# # #

ROTFLMAO!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swashbuckler:
I have a few "spoiled rotten" questions for you, Doug...

• Would it be too much to hope that the prospective "rarities" disc might be doubled in DVD-Audio as well?

• You've discussed multimedia content as a supplement to your (eagerly awaited) book. Now there is a lot of speculation about what this might mean... would this possibly be taking the place of said "rarities" disc, or would it be in addition to it?
  

---

You know, I've been thinking about this exact same thing, and here are my thoughts.

Firstly, we don't really know how much "rarities" content is actually out there to warrant a separate release on a DVD Audio disc. I would assume a CD with the rarities content, accompanied by a DVD witht he multimedia content. But this would probably not be the best way to do it because...

...secondly, and probably more importantly, since the rarities would be gleaned from unused music spread over all 3 films, would it really be an "experience" listening to, say, 60 random minutes of music with no cohesion whatsoever? I mean, it'd be like selecting 60 minutes of music from all 3 CRs and listening to it just because it exists.

So here's my gut feeling: I'm thinking the rarities would probably be presented on DVD along with the multimedia content, much as Use Well The Days was presented on the ROTK:Limited Edition OST DVD. That way it'd be possible to incorporate commentaries from Shore/Doug concerning the unused music, possibly even cued with the scene(s) from the movies where the music was intended for use. That way, there wouldn't be any concern of the music lacking in a narrative experience.

I have a couple of quick questions:

• I was just wondering if the choral piece from the very start of the "The Great River" (track 15, original FOTR soundtrack) will appear again? It's a great piece that I hope hasn't been forgotten about.

• What is the instrument that sounds at 1:51 of "Weathertop" (disc 2, track 1, CR)? It is almost like a synthesised sound but I know that that Mr. Adams said there were none used in the scores. It sounds like a sword slicing through the air.
  

In response to Earl's last message, I would hope that the rarities will be given the full DVD-Audio treatment. I agree that it may not work in a narrative sense but it should still be presented in the same quality as the main material.

I was also reading an interview on AICN recently with the producers of the EE DVD's. They said that they hoped to do another EE release in the coming years and that they had something like 20-30 hours of documentary material that they hadn't released previously. I was wondering how much of that included footage of the recording sessions and if this will make it's way into the multimedia content in some form?

Anyway, many thanks again to everyone who's working so hard on these releases and I'm looking forward to the book and the final installment!

Best Regards,
ruckus

>>>I really don't have the nerves to dig my way through 70 pages of all the LOTR Package threads, but this subject came up before, and I'm pretty sure Doug mentioned that while doing the CRs, all the music sheets and sketches are being assembled for a definite, complete printing of the complete scores. I suppose that's for the archives, though, and not for the general public.<<<

OK, gkgyver, I did a quick word search on "scores" through "The Collected Sayings of Doug Adams" (some 80 pp. of just D. Adams) and came up with these four separate references that pretty well clear it up for us...

The Complete Scores exist, they are archived, and if we all are very, very good Hobbits, we might(sooner rather than later) actually see them issued in some form if economically and copyright feasible...
Timdalf

DA:...The Lord of the Rings scores were such fluid compositions in their creation… constantly edited and rerecorded until the Extended DVDs arrived in stores, so in this way the whole concept of a “final version” is pretty subjective. I mean, say for example that there were three or four drafts of a composition as written for the Theatrical Cut, a film mix and an album mix of that, then three or four more drafts of the composition as opened up for the Extended Edition, then a new mix created for that. If you’re the composer, do you consider any of those as the final draft of the piece? Is it the piece as you originally composed it? That draft wouldn’t be what audiences heard in the film, and wouldn’t account for the added bars heard in the DVD. Is it the first draft of the DVD music? Certain sections were edited on the podium at recording sessions, some of which you may actually prefer, some of which were necessary for a few added frames in the film. This may be appropriate for album presentation, but possibly not....

...>>>By the way, another question I had for Professor Doug, if he is willing to entertain it: is it possible the full orchestral score of either the Symphony or the Complete Scores ever likely be published in some reasonably affordable form?>>>

DA: This is not entirely out of the question....

...>>>DOUG, can you clearly tell us: how much music was written for each film, approximately; how much music was recorded for each film, approximately (of course, I'm not talking about every take, but all that would be 'presentable' on the CR [even if it isn't on the CR]). I'm confused about how much there is of written and recorded music. I'd like to be able to fill in something like this:>>>

DA: My research involved digging through the conductor’s scores to the completed compositions, which means that much of the material that was unrecorded, or recorded then redone, I never saw. Now, I know where many or most of these pieces were meant to exist because of notes, but there’s still much I’ve never heard… (I did hear some at recording sessions, I should point out.) Anyway, that research is still upcoming, so I can’t answer this question just yet....

>>>And in fact, is there such a score in a finished form as yet? I imagine the CR's were compiled directly from the audio recordings. So the scores actually used originally at the recording sessions may be in some sort of as yet somewhat different and possibly even chaotic state...>>>

DA: ...This project is, at least, being tended to now. The full scores are currently being engraved for archival purposes at Shore’s offices....

Edit: And Doug, would Peter Jackson be making an appearance on the multimedia disc? I mean, I remember I'd read somewhere that he and Shore had spoken about someday releasing the music as a whole. It'd be cool to hear him speak about Shore's accomplishment I think they've both now worked 7-8 years on the Lord of the Rings. Pretty commendable. And haven't you been around LOTR some 6 years or so??

quote:

---

Originally posted by Earl:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by Swashbuckler:
[b]I have a few "spoiled rotten" questions for you, Doug...

• Would it be too much to hope that the prospective "rarities" disc might be doubled in DVD-Audio as well?

• You've discussed multimedia content as a supplement to your (eagerly awaited) book. Now there is a lot of speculation about what this might mean... would this possibly be taking the place of said "rarities" disc, or would it be in addition to it?
  

<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, I've been thinking about this exact same thing, and here are my thoughts.

Firstly, we don't really know how much "rarities" content is actually out there to warrant a separate release on a DVD Audio disc. I would assume a CD with the rarities content, accompanied by a DVD witht he multimedia content. But this would probably not be the best way to do it because...

...secondly, and probably more importantly, since the rarities would be gleaned from unused music spread over all 3 films, would it really be an "experience" listening to, say, 60 random minutes of music with no cohesion whatsoever? I mean, it'd be like selecting 60 minutes of music from all 3 CRs and listening to it just because it exists.

So here's my gut feeling: I'm thinking the rarities would probably be presented on DVD along with the multimedia content, much as Use Well The Days was presented on the ROTK:Limited Edition OST DVD. That way it'd be possible to incorporate commentaries from Shore/Doug concerning the unused music, possibly even cued with the scene(s) from the movies where the music was intended for use. That way, there wouldn't be any concern of the music lacking in a narrative experience.

I don't really know anything, and I could be 100% wrong about this, but I'm just leaving my thoughts around here since the topic was brought up.[/B]

---

I shall be playing "Pass of Caradhras" on this occasion!

If he's smart, he'd have done what I did...

Stayed home!!!

I hope he answers the parking permit question soon, as I expect the warg to eat any prospective meter maids, which might spoil its appetite. I need it hungry, we're going to sack a village this weekend.

Anyway, regarding possibilities for the 'rarities' content - the DVD-Audio edition of Fleetwood Mac's Rumours has commentary tracks for each song, similar to a director's feature commentary. This could be a useful feature that would avoid discussion over the music, but might preserve the surround experience for those so equipped...

As far as how the music would flow on its own, well, that's a good point. It would also depend on the nature of these rarities as well; would they be presented in an album form? I assumed that the rarities would contain a lot of alternate versions of cues, but also possibly some of the music heard in the theatrical, but not extended versions.

I came across this - http://www.moviemusic.com/mb/Forum1/HTML/013360.html - Doug, when you refer to the 150 pages, is that the book you are currently working on, and if so, do you know how many more pages it will be, as that post was back in 2004............... I'm very excited ........

I recently bought another five Howard Shore CDs from someone in the UK, that means I have about 26 or 27 Howard Shore CDs, at the moment great listen......but not all of his CD releases.....

I bought: Ed Wood, ExistenZ, The Game, Mrs. Doubtfire, and Crash.

To those HS collectors out there, the "Crash" CD I got had a different cover to the one pictured on Amazon.com.......my question is, do any of you collectors have that cover, and if so, could you email me the pages in the booklet and the front and back cover, so that I know how it differs to the copy I have. I think my version was a French version....not sure....

Also a question to Mr Adams to pass on to Mr Shore for a response...... - I listened to Mrs Doubtfire, and when it came to Track 10 - "The Show's Over", straight away at the start of the track, memories came to me of Alan Metter's 1988 film "Moving" - do you know if this will ever get a release??????

Shore & Adams, thanks for the music, and the passion for what you are both doing.

All the best!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks to all who showed concern for the crazy weather certain parts of the country have been socked with. Shore is actually out of the country right now, and as far as I know, his NY staff is all safe and sound. Chicago hasn’t seen nearly the snow NY has, but we’ve been in a deep freeze. I’ve been riding the thermostat a bit, but no huge concerns.

>>>Suggestion: don't be afraid to put in numerous and frequent time stamps!>>>

Time stamps are a tricky affair, since you can’t automatically assume that the book readers actually own the CD boxed sets. Of course, they likely will in most instances, but still... Anyway, I think we’ve come up with a very good, interactive solution… you’ll see.

>>>And maybe you remember my hint that you might want to have bits for the more musically technical among us set off from the main text so those who don't want or need that can still get a through composition, as it were.>>>

I’m trying to avoid an abundance of off-set sections of text in the layout, only because I don’t want the book to read like stereo instructions. But the gist of this idea will still be addressed. Again, you’ll see in time.

>>>Now there we go... Why not take a particularly interesting (and intricate) exemplary passage and give us the nuts and bolts of how it went from multiple tracks of each instrument to a final mix and edit and then how you worked out your elucidations... Where does M. Shore do it, at home, at a studio, whose-all input is considered? If more than one pair of ears, are there any moments of gentlemenly sotto voce disagreement and how are they resolved... You know, the usual impertent interviewer type questions digging for drama and newsworthiness (read: conflict!! both interpersonal and within M. Shore's mind)...>>>

Jim Breuning (who you see credited with Material Preparation in the boxed set credits) oversees most of the nuts and bolts of the editing on the sets… and as each draft is completed, discs and spreadsheets are distributed to Howard, project supervisor Alan Frey, me… and probably a few others. Notes are made, Howard looks through everything, decides what, if anything, should actually be changed, and another draft is assembled by Jim. This process is repeated until a final draft is achieved. I think I may have described it before as the rock tumbler technique, and that’s really what it is. Each subsequent draft brings the piece closer to a final, polished work.

There aren’t disagreements per se, because we’re all pretty much shooting ideas to Shore. He’s the mastermind—considering and assembling all possible suggestions. This is his music and his vision, and it’s incredibly important that he stay at the helm. But he’s wonderfully open to suggestions and keeps the environment such that you never feel intrusive making them. It’s a wonderful creative / business model, really.

>>>So, you're saying that ROTK will still feature the complete, unedited recordings (and by that I mean the pure compositions), and currently you're about to mix them?>>>

ROTK will be assembled exactly as have FOTR and TTT. No deviation from the norm. I think we were all rather pleased with the way those came out, if I do say so.

>>>Also, for *my* snare drum question - I know, we German all look/sound/post alike... I've been trying to break down the pattern of what it's playing, especially during the first 30 seconds, but there are so many eighth and sixteenth rests in there that I'm screwed.>>>

I’ll write it out for you sometime, if I remember. Don’t be afraid to bother me!

>>>This is, I think, one of my true wishes...have the complete score in front of me while listening to the CRs...

>>>Now that would be heavenly. Unfathomably so.>>>

It is an enjoyable way to spend an afternoon, I assure you!

>>>It's a wish that will never, ever, come true...I can't imagine the full scores ever being made available in any way.>>>

It’s actually not impossible, believe it or not. I’m not dropping hints at this point, but it’s not an absolute impossibility.

>>>I'm not sure if this has been mentioned/asked, but is there the possibility of having Howard or you, Doug, introduce/explain tracks or connected sets of tracks on any bonus disc(s)? Since I imagine there will be many places where the music will not flow particularly well, I think it would be cool to hear Howard or you discuss a cue--what's different about it, why it wasn't used, etc before it plays. Or maybe this could be a DVD-audio option: listen with pre-track audio commentary by Doug or Howard.>>>

You are decidedly on the right track here!

>>>The biggest obstacles would be whether an orchestral score of the Complete Recordings even exists (it may just consists of a very large stack of left-over sketches from the original recording sessions which would have to be edited themselves). And also, even if such a finished score exists, the process of scanning it into digital form would be quite a costly labor.>>>

As pointed out above, this in particular, is not an obstacle at all. The scores are being engraved for archival purposes even now. Fellowship is already done, in fact.

>>>Hmmm...I'm not sure I understand. What I was referring to was, for example, Dwarvish Interlude, and probably more music like that. Now that you mention "written but not recorded" and "written but not set to the film", I'm not sure what category this belongs to. But I hope you understand what I'm talking about.>>>

Well if a piece was written—or sketched—but never recorded, it’s highly unlikely that it’ll be recorded at this point, simply because of the money involved. That said, there’s pretty much nothing that falls into this category. Everything that was written into a finished form was recorded. Dwarvish Interlude, for example, was never set to music, so there’s nothing to hear.

>>>* One of the things I went ga-ga over abou these two sets has been the Advanced Resolution tracks. There is no comparison when it comes to such moments as "The Wolves of Isengard" or the Helm's Deep sequence. I was wondering if there was ever any talk about releasing the original albums, which are, as acknowledged, a very different listening experiences from the CRs, in that format as well.>>>

I’ve honestly never heard any talk about this, and though I imagine it’s not out of the question, I bet it would be a ways off only because of the PR nightmare it could potentially create. The boxed sets have already been met with a few cries of “Double Dipping,” despite the fact that they’re *fairly* unique from the original albums. You want to avoid the Star Wars-esque backlash for as long as you can, I think.

>>>* Would it be too much to hope that the prospective "rarities" disc might be doubled in DVD-Audio as well?>>>

Not too much to hope for at all… Mostly depends on storage capacity at this point.

>>>* You've discussed multimedia content as a supplement to your (eagerly awaited) book. Now there is a lot of speculation about what this might mean... would this possibly be taking the place of said "rarities" disc, or would it be in addition to it?>>>

I’m gonna give you a dodgy answer on this one and just say, don’t worry, you’ll get everything. I’ll explain when I can, I promise.

I will say this, I’m quite amazed and the accuracy of some of the guesswork I’ve seen around here lately.

>>>* I was just wondering if the choral piece from the very start of the "The Great River" (track 15, original FOTR soundtrack) will appear again? It's a great piece that I hope hasn't been forgotten about.>>>

Well, it’s not forgotten about in the sense that it’s on the OST. I don’t think it’s likely the rarities disc will contain material that was presented on the OST, but not in the CRs only because you’ve already got that material—unless there’s a significant reason for doing so. I don’t want you to pay for the same thing twice.

>>>* What is the instrument that sounds at 1:51 of "Weathertop" (disc 2, track 1, CR)? It is almost like a synthesised sound but I know that that Mr. Adams said there were none used in the scores. It sounds like a sword slicing through the air.>>>

The answer provided above is right on – it’s a bowed cymbal, a Howard Shore favorite (check out his work in Seven sometime).

>>>I was also reading an interview on AICN recently with the producers of the EE DVD's. They said that they hoped to do another EE release in the coming years and that they had something like 20-30 hours of documentary material that they hadn't released previously. I was wondering how much of that included footage of the recording sessions and if this will make it's way into the multimedia content in some form?>>>

There’s a little session footage that’s never been seen, and it may be able to escape the archives sometime soon. Possibly…

>>>Edit: And Doug, would Peter Jackson be making an appearance on the multimedia disc? I mean, I remember I'd read somewhere that he and Shore had spoken about someday releasing the music as a whole. It'd be cool to hear him speak about Shore's accomplishment I think they've both now worked 7-8 years on the Lord of the Rings. Pretty commendable. And haven't you been around LOTR some 6 years or so??>>>

Jackon’s involvement would probably depend on the logistics of his schedule and the production’s schedule. So it’s a definite “maybe.”

I got the LOTR call May 16, 2001, so nearly 6 years now. And yes, I remember the exact day, what can I say?

>>>Anyway, regarding possibilities for the 'rarities' content - the DVD-Audio edition of Fleetwood Mac's Rumours has commentary tracks for each song, similar to a director's feature commentary. This could be a useful feature that would avoid discussion over the music, but might preserve the surround experience for those so equipped...>>>

Commentaries are definitely on the table at this point. Even saying that, I’m saying too much, so I’ll say no more… for now.

>>>I came across this - http://www.moviemusic.com/mb/Forum1/HTML/013360.html - Doug, when you refer to the 150 pages, is that the book you are currently working on, and if so, do you know how many more pages it will be, as that post was back in 2004............... I'm very excited ........>>>

Thanks! Yes, this is the same Music of LOTR book that’s in the pipeline right now. 150 is still a good ballpark, but it probably looks to be a bit longer at this point… it all depends on the layout, fonts, etc.

>>>Also a question to Mr Adams to pass on to Mr Shore for a response...... - I listened to Mrs Doubtfire, and when it came to Track 10 - "The Show's Over", straight away at the start of the track, memories came to me of Alan Metter's 1988 film "Moving" - do you know if this will ever get a release??????>>>

There are a number of Shore’s scores that have never seen the light of day, but it’s always possible that something could be put together at some point!

Gee, I feel like I’ve regressed. By the end of TTT I felt I was finally able to give everyone specifics, but now at the early stages of ROTK and the book, I’m back to vague nothings! Sorry guys… you know the drill, I guess. There’s only so much I can talk about at this stage, but I promise I’ll keep you as well-informed as I can!

Best,

-Doug

Oh my.

>>>* I was just wondering if the choral piece from the very start of the "The Great River" (track 15, original FOTR soundtrack) will appear again? It's a great piece that I hope hasn't been forgotten about.>>>

Well, it’s not forgotten about in the sense that it’s on the OST. I don’t think it’s likely the rarities disc will contain material that was presented on the OST, but not in the CRs only because you’ve already got that material—unless there’s a significant reason for doing so. I don’t want you to pay for the same thing twice.

Heh. That particular moment is one of my absolute favorite pieces from the whole trilogy, and was part of the reason why I was asking about a possible DVD-Audio release of the original album. That and the tantilizing prospect of what that build-up in "The Prophecy" will sound like in Advanced Resolution. It makes the audiophile in me practically shiver with excitement. Okay, the shivering may, in fact, have more to do with the extremely cold weather we've been having, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want to blast such a thing on one Sunday afternoon in the future...

I’ve honestly never heard any talk about this, and though I imagine it’s not out of the question, I bet it would be a ways off only because of the PR nightmare it could potentially create. The boxed sets have already been met with a few cries of “Double Dipping,” despite the fact that they’re *fairly* unique from the original albums. You want to avoid the Star Wars-esque backlash for as long as you can, I think.

I actually have to admit that I'm quite surprised that anybody complained about double dipping in terms of the original albums and the CRs. I think it is pretty apparent that are very different and serve two different purposes - and hey, and as far as Star Wars is concerned, I never grumbled about those releases, because while I'm glad to have a lot of the music that is only available on the Special Editions, it's the Arista set that I listen to most often. I feel it is possibly also relevant to point out that the fourth disc of that set proves that intelligent programming can indeed make a "rarities" disc an entertaining listen in its own right.

DA: Thanks to all who showed concern for the crazy weather certain parts of the country have been socked with. Shore is actually out of the country right now, and as far as I know, his NY staff is all safe and sound. Chicago hasn’t seen nearly the snow NY has, but we’ve been in a deep freeze. I’ve been riding the thermostat a bit, but no huge concerns.

Tdalf: I too live in the NYC area... we were not hit hard by any of the storms that hit upstate (no 8 foot snowfalls, let alone drifts!!) The storm yesterday was a doozy to drive in... but what's one day per winter!

>>>Suggestion: don't be afraid to put in numerous and frequent time stamps!>>>

DA: Time stamps are a tricky affair, since you can’t automatically assume that the book readers actually own the CD boxed sets. Of course, they likely will in most instances, but still... Anyway, I think we’ve come up with a very good, interactive solution… you’ll see.

Tdalf: Now, Prof. Doug, you really don't think people are going to buy only the book and not buy the CD boxed sets!!! If they do they will be missing your whole point in putting the book together: to give insights into the music as HEARD!!

>>>And maybe you remember my hint that you might want to have bits for the more musically technical among us set off from the main text so those who don't want or need that can still get a through composition, as it were.>>>

DA: I’m trying to avoid an abundance of off-set sections of text in the layout, only because I don’t want the book to read like stereo instructions. But the gist of this idea will still be addressed. Again, you’ll see in time.

Tdalf: OK, but don't be afraid to give us some (read: lots of) good, sound (pun alert!) technical stuff... We can take it! (Maybe as footnotes -- or that Tolkien favorite: appendices!) at the back of the book then, if offsets are not in your style!)

>>>Now there we go... Why not take a particularly interesting (and intricate) exemplary passage and give us the nuts and bolts of how it went from multiple tracks of each instrument to a final mix and edit and then how you worked out your elucidations... Where does M. Shore do it, at home, at a studio, whose-all input is considered? If more than one pair of ears, are there any moments of gentlemenly sotto voce disagreement and how are they resolved... You know, the usual impertent interviewer type questions digging for drama and newsworthiness (read: conflict!! both interpersonal and within M. Shore's mind)...>>>

DA: Jim Breuning (who you see credited with Material Preparation in the boxed set credits) oversees most of the nuts and bolts of the editing on the sets… and as each draft is completed, discs and spreadsheets are distributed to Howard, project supervisor Alan Frey, me… and probably a few others. Notes are made, Howard looks through everything, decides what, if anything, should actually be changed, and another draft is assembled by Jim. This process is repeated until a final draft is achieved. I think I may have described it before as the rock tumbler technique, and that’s really what it is. Each subsequent draft brings the piece closer to a final, polished work.

There aren’t disagreements per se, because we’re all pretty much shooting ideas to Shore. He’s the mastermind—considering and assembling all possible suggestions. This is his music and his vision, and it’s incredibly important that he stay at the helm. But he’s wonderfully open to suggestions and keeps the environment such that you never feel intrusive making them. It’s a wonderful creative/business model, really.

TF: This was fascinating. Thanks for the brief look into how this project actually gets done. Great answer! Goooo Shore team, GO!

...>>>This is, I think, one of my true wishes...have the complete score in front of me while listening to the CRs...

>>>Now that would be heavenly. Unfathomably so.>>>

DA: It is an enjoyable way to spend an afternoon, I assure you!

Tdalf: Oh, you meany!!! ;-) You'll bring out the envious Gollum in us all!!! Ah well, you deserve these perks, no question! An answer worthy of Gandalf himself!!!

>>>It's a wish that will never, ever, come true... I can't imagine the full scores ever being made available in any way.>>>

DA: It’s actually not impossible, believe it or not. I’m not dropping hints at this point, but it’s not an absolute impossibility.

Tdalf: Again, let's hope that despite all the inevitable considerations it becomes a probability sometime in the not too distant future.....

>>>The biggest obstacles would be whether an orchestral score of the Complete Recordings even exists (it may just consists of a very large stack of left-over sketches from the original recording sessions which would have to be edited themselves). And also, even if such a finished score exists, the process of scanning it into digital form would be quite a costly labor.>>>

DA: As pointed out above, this in particular, is not an obstacle at all. The scores are being engraved for archival purposes even now. Fellowship is already done, in fact.

Tdalf: So the question becomes one of how to make them available in a practical manner that honors M. Shore's rights, given that the market is probably not that vast! (...yet!) But can't we see conservatories and film schools everywhere offering courses on contemporary film scores with these as primary sources....

>>>...Doug, when you refer to the 150 pages, is that the book you are currently working on, and if so, do you know how many more pages it will be, as that post was back in 2004...<<<

DA: Thanks! Yes, this is the same Music of LOTR book that’s in the pipeline right now. 150 is still a good ballpark, but it probably looks to be a bit longer at this point… it all depends on the layout, fonts, etc.

Tdalf: Well, let's see... (wild speculation time again!) the pdf's of FotR and TTT come to 70 pages... and RotK will take, what? 50-55 pages, at least. Total 120 pp. (with some repetition). So assuming (and it's a big assumption, of course) the book has the same size pages... that leaves only some 30+ pages of additional analysis... We is greedy for more..... Let your publishers know! Given the advance publicity and numbers of buyers of the CD box sets I am SURE your book will sell magnificently! If it took 3 films (of 3.5, 3.75,4.1 hrs = 11.25+ hrs) with music of some 10+ hrs, the book deserves to be comparable, a blockbuster! Bring it on! If anything has proven to be consistent in Tolkien marketing (books, films, spin-off goodies, cd's of the score), it has been that the market has been underestimated every time!

DA: Gee, I feel like I’ve regressed. By the end of TTT I felt I was finally able to give everyone specifics, but now at the early stages of ROTK and the book, I’m back to vague nothings! Sorry guys… you know the drill, I guess. There’s only so much I can talk about at this stage, but I promise I’ll keep you as well-informed as I can!

Best,
-Doug

Tdalf: Not to worry, we know you can only say so much at this time. Your restraint is remarkable! And you have proven a super responder to our pleas and pesterings. And this year will be double duty for you! Thanks again!

DA: It’s actually not impossible, believe it or not. I’m not dropping hints at this point, but it’s not an absolute impossibility.

Jeez, not impossible! Outside world peace this pretty much tops my list of wishes. But it sure seems impossible, so Doug's continued reassurance that it's not--despite being clear that nothing's planned--sure is unexpected. I'm not going to press for unanswerable questions on this issue, but the barriers seem so vast.

Could you answer, perhaps, why it wouldn't be impossible (even if it never happens)? In other words, among the formidable barriers of 1) size of the physical copy, 2) copyright, 3) proper (and deservedly ample!) compensation for Mr. Shore, 4) current norms of publishing full scores for the public (which are non-existent for film scores and very restrictive for all other scores), and 5) a price tag that would ensure more than 2 people in the world could afford it, and all the other barriers, are all of these actually not as insurmountable as they seem?

Also, when you say the 'full score' is not impossible (again, I'm not trying to get a 'promise' of a future release out of you--as far as I'm concerned, for my own sanity, this remains in the realm of fantasy), do you in fact mean the true, full score (CR), and not just the 2 hour symphony?

On a purely technical note, is 'engraved for archival purposes' industry jargon? You don't actually mean the scores are being literally engraved, right? Also, it sounds as if Shore himself (and not, for example, New Line) actually owns or shares the rights to all his LOTR music. Is this true? It would certainly be out of the norm, wouldn't it?

quote:

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Originally posted by ruckus:

..."The Great River" (track 15, original FOTR...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug Adams:

Well, it’s not forgotten about in the sense that it’s on the OST. I don’t think it’s likely the rarities disc will contain material that was presented on the OST, but not in the CRs only because you’ve already got that material—unless there’s a significant reason for doing so. I don’t want you to pay for the same thing twice.

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Thanks for your response Doug. I felt a bit greedy asking about this after the CR has been released. Thanks also to you and to NeoVoyager for the information on the bowed cymbal.

In case some people missed it, I came across an interview with Howard Shore from 2001. Towards the end he discusses how he was selected for the LotR job.

HOWARD: I lived in Hell’s Kitchen! I sublet from an old woman whose husband had died. She was a missionary, and she went off to Africa for six months, but she didn’t really pack the place up. She left her husband’s photographs all over the place — stuffed in the drawers of the dresser, you know. They were really creepy — black and white, mostly crime scenes. Years later, I figured out, “Oh my god, that was Weegee.” And of course, in researching it, I found out Weegee had lived on 47th Street, and yes, that was his place.

Hilarious! I can vividly imagine lil' Mr Shore walking to work from Hell's Kitchen. Sweet Lord...

It seems to this humble listener/reader that the vast majority of buyers of the forthcoming Adams tome (i.e., who in the nature of things are also buyers of the CR cd sets) would be better served with time-stamps, rather than the (veeeery!) few who might read the book and not have purchased them (as is their bounden duty, ahem! - and not least to their own profit!).

While your reticence, Prof Doug, to appear to be pushing (via time-stamps) sales of the cd sets is commendable, it is - perhaps - a tad too considerate of the few over the many?

quote:

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Originally posted by Timdalf:
One last comment on the time-stamps issue, then I promise to shut up (until next time!) ;-)

It seems to this humble listener/reader that the vast majority of buyers of the forthcoming Adams tome (i.e., who in the nature of things are also buyers of the CR cd sets) would be better served with time-stamps, rather than the (veeeery!) few who might read the book and not have purchased them (as is their bounden duty, ahem! - and not least to their own profit!).

While your reticence, Prof Doug, to appear to be pushing (via time-stamps) sales of the cd sets is commendable, it is - perhaps - a tad too considerate of the few over the many?

What say you all? Hear!? Hear!?
Timdalf

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But I find I'm in the minority of most groups to which I belong (even my Myers Briggs puts me in a minority 4% grouping) so I'm real used to not getting my way when majority demographic rules. And in commercialism, the majority always rules.

quote:

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Originally posted by Gorbag:
Something unrelated guys, but I was wondering if you could help me. I have both CR's but now want to make a Playlist on Itunes of the tracks from the FOTR and TTT TR albums that have significant differences, like the Prophecy. I don't really have the time to listen to them all the way through at the minute so I was wondering if someone could just briefly tell me the other tracks which feature stuff not on the CR, because I can't really remember off the top of my head. Thanks in advance.

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Good question... I've done more or less exactly this myself.

Here are my picks so far:

FotR:
The Prophecy
The Great River

TTT:
The White Rider
Helm's Deep

I personally also like "The Black Rider" from the FotR OST better than its CR counterpart because of the immense difference in the mixing of the choir, and I prefer the layout of "The Breaking of the Fellowship" over "The Road Goes Ever On 1 & 2."

quote:

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TTT:
The White Rider
Helm's Deep

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I believe that the OST "The White Rider" has an alternate take of the Gandalf the White in the Fellowship theme to the CR but what is the difference with OST "Helm's Deep"? Isn't is just a shorter version of the CR "Wolves of Isengard" & "Refuge at Helm's Deep"?

[Message edited by sjd on 02-18-2007]

quote:

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I believe that the OST "The White Rider" has an alternate take of the Gandalf the White in the Fellowship theme to the CR but what is the dirrerence with OST "Helm's Deep"? Isn't is just a shorter version of the CR "Wolves of Isengard" & "Refuge at Helm's Deep"?

[Message edited by sjd on 02-18-2007]

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Nope.

The CR track "The Wolves of Isengard" replaced what was in the OST a choir performance ("Helm's Deep" - 0:55) with a hardanger fiddle performance ("The Wolves of Isengard" - 1:25... while Éowyn is pleading with Théoden to allow her to fight).

Both have their merits, to be sure... so I keep them both on my iPod for this reason (if I had to choose, I'd pick the fiddle though... sorry Cavalier ).

The OST tracks are more or less all somehow different from the final film versions (more so with the EE versions). Here are FotR tracks that differ or feature music not on the corresponding CR track:

1.Prophecy: Basically the whole piece. There is a small snippet in the middle of it that features the small choir segment "tercano nuruva" and Gollum's theme and the Nameless Fear motif which are also in the Prologue but otherwise completely different.

2.Concerning Hobbits: Shorter than the film version and different from the CR "Bag End" track.

3. Shadow of the Past: This has a mysterious flute solo beginning with Pity of Gollum's theme on both oboe and flute(0;00-0;58)that does not feature in the CR at all.

4.Treason of Isengard: Has about 15 seconds longer Black Speech choir section at the end than the film counterpart.

5. The Black Rider: Most signicant change besides the obviously longer length of the CR version is the added Ringwraith choir which was left off the film version.

6. At the Sign of the Prancing Pony: Shorter again compared to the CR version and features more forceful Ringwraith music and a first glimpse of Isengard theme at the end which is not on the CR as it was not used in the film.

7. Knife in the Dark: The Ringwraith choir continues throught the whole scene compared to the CR and film where it was dropped half way through. The Isegard material is shortened significantly.

11. The Great River: Theatrical version.

Do feel free to add anything if it seems I missed something important.

quote:

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The OST tracks are more or less all somehow different from the final film versions (more so with the EE versions). Here are FotR tracks that differ or feature music not on the corresponding CR track:

1.Prophecy: Basically the whole piece. There is a small snippet in the middle of it that features the small choir segment "tercano nuruva" and Gollum's theme and the Nameless Fear motif which are also in the Prologue but otherwise completely different.

2.Concerning Hobbits: Shorter than the film version and different from the CR "Bag End" track.

3. Shadow of the Past: This has a mysterious flute solo beginning with Pity of Gollum's theme on both oboe and flute(0;00-0;58)that does not feature in the CR at all.

4.Treason of Isengard: Has about 15 seconds longer Black Speech choir section at the end than the film counterpart.

5. The Black Rider: Most signicant change besides the obviously longer length of the CR version is the added Ringwraith choir which was left off the film version.

6. At the Sign of the Prancing Pony: Shorter again compared to the CR version and features more forceful Ringwraith music and a first glimpse of Isengard theme at the end which is not on the CR as it was not used in the film.

7. Knife in the Dark: The Ringwraith choir continues throught the whole scene compared to the CR and film where it was dropped half way through. The Isegard material is shortened significantly.

11. The Great River: Theatrical version.

Do feel free to add anything if it seems I missed something important.

[Message edited by Incanus on 02-21-2007]

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Great list, Incanus!

I believe you're right on all counts here... but I'd have to ask: "Concerning Hobbits" doesn't contain any *more* material than "Bag End," does it? I prefer "Concerning Hobbits" because (1) it doesn't have the Bilbo ditty and (2) it lacks the darker interlude while Bilbo thinks he has lost the ring, making it a more straightforward and consistent listen, IMO.

And that ending to "The Treason of Isengard"! I've been listening to exclusively the CR for so long, I forgot how *insanely* great the original was.

The film version of "Concerning Hobbits," with the extra fiddle solo, can be heard in the fan club credits.

"The Shire" and "Bag End" contain elements from "Concerning Hobbits" interlaced with new material. I tried inserting "Concerning Hobbits" into my CR playlist but found that it was too repetitive with both of the other tracks, so I relocated it to a suite at the end, which also has "The Prophecy," the OST version of "The Flight to the Ford" and "The Great River" proper (even though I did edit that one part with Galadriel waving into "The Fighting Uruk-Hai").

I feel there are too many interesting things in "The Shire" and "Bag End" to abandon them in favor of "Concerning Hobbits."

quote:

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Originally posted by Swashbuckler:
I tried inserting "Concerning Hobbits" into my CR playlist but found that it was too repetitive with both of the other tracks, so I relocated it to a suite at the end, which also has "The Prophecy," the OST version of "The Flight to the Ford" and "The Great River" proper (even though I did edit that one part with Galadriel waving into "The Fighting Uruk-Hai").

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I did the same thing with that little clip from "The Great River", tacking it on to the beginning of "The Fighting Uruk-Hai". That phrase is one of my favorite pieces of elvish material, and it really lifts my heart at that moment in the story.