Quick answers ahoy!

>>>I think what Doug is saying - in short - is that we shouldn't necessarily count on the book being released this year.>>>

Honestly, I don't know if I'm saying this or not! It'll be out sometime after ROTK, which doesn't yet have a release date. It's a matter in the hands of record labels and book publishers at the moment—and they're apt to move at whatever pace they desire. Guess being media giant conglomerates grants them a certain sort of leisure.

>>>I think I know the answer to this, but Doug, if you were asked by HS to work on liner notes and such for his KK CR(as I'll temporarily call it), would you want to be a part of that?>>>

Yes, in theory, I'd be thrilled.

I know everyone wants to hear the story of the Giant Fallout (TM), and I've heard hilariously falsified Johnny-on-the-spot reports that have Jackson on the scoring stage screaming that he wanted to fire Shore after Fellowship but his wife wouldn't let him, Shore sending score pages flying towards Jackson's head, Universal suits forcing Jackson to hand Shore his walking papers and Jackson acquiescing in order to secure a 3-hour cut of Kong… and Shore locking Jackson in a sleeper hold at the premiere until he admitted that he was wrong. All false, all ridiculous. And, frankly, shame on those who propagated this nonsense as undisputed truth… except for that sleeper hold one, which I'm putting out there personally just to see who bites!

There was no "firing" per se. No drama. No airborne score pages. It was a case of two professional artists who just didn't end up in the same headspace. They still talk, they still respect one another. The film was a success, Shore's original score is strikingly beautiful… and JNH amazingly provided the final score in record time, ensuring that the film actually made it to theaters in time. Was the situation disappointing for devotees of the Shore / Jackson collaboration? Yes, absolutely! And especially to those of use making very expensive trips to New Zealand! But such is the nature of art, and I see no reason that we should be angrier than the actual participants. Collaboration always, always involves a roll of the dice.

Regarding subjects pertaining to large primates, however, I'll paraphrase the good Mr. Gump at this time… "And that's all I have to say about that."... for now.

>>>Has anyone ever noticed that the first couple bars of Howard Shore's "Gondor in Ascension / Aragorn" theme are virtually identical to Miklos Rozsa's theme for Christ in Ben-Hur?>>>

Actually, the Gondor in Ascension theme (as well as its thematic relatives, including both the Aragorn and Gandalf material) is based on the same down-and-back-up shape that the opening of the Fellowship theme presents. Rozsa's Lydian Christ theme in Ben-Hur is actually closer to the Fourth Age of Gondor theme… actually quite close, as you note. However, as this theme represents a culture more than a specific character... and a post-salvation culture at that... the connection is not really anything other than coincidental.

Tolkien's feelings on the matter, of course, are a separate issue, but regardless, they hold little bearing on this specific musical issue.

>>>And hows ROTK:CR coming along? Hope you have a good Easter all of you.>>>

Very well, thanks! I'm in the cusp of the next draft of the liners. Disc one track titles are now under consideration as well. We're marching forwards!

>>>2. The Osgiliath scenes with the Ringwraith doesn't seem to feature any Warith music. Considering the choral piece used in the Dead Marshes, was this a missed opportunity?>>>

>>>But it's the same tone clusters played with a different kind of pace, isn't it? It's also used in ROTK.>>>

The Wraith music is represented in the brass harmonies, so it *is* in there… subtly. It’s not so much clusters, per se, as it is minor chords with the second degree included. Play D, E, F, A (as a block chord) on the piano, you’ll hear that unmistakable sound.

Btw, these lists of favorite moments (which I’ve snipped for space) are fun to read!

>>>Hmmm...point. SO does this imply that Mr.Shore wrote that piece specifically for the end credits as well (possibly with different orchestrations)? Or was it just tracked in there since it was well, end credit music.>>>

>>>Unlike Bilbo's Song (which makes me want to weep everytime for the fading of beauty, and fairness, and innocence).>>>

The "exactly" above is a qualified "exactly," since Shore often composed multiple drafts of these compositions in an effort to get precisely the right tone in each. The end credit suites have often been used to showcase some of these drafts that, while they didn’t make it into the narrative flow, still hold something of unique musical interest.

More later, gotta type! Still slowly wading through emails as well, responses soon.

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The Wraith music is represented in the brass harmonies, so it *is* in there… subtly. It’s not so much clusters, per se, as it is minor chords with the second degree included. Play D, E, F, A (as a block chord) on the piano, you’ll hear that unmistakable sound.

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Wow... "unmistakable" for sure! That's fascinating that a single chord can be so vivid.

What I would *really* like to see written out is that slow, building chord progression for the Wraiths (beginning with that minor + 2nd chord).* I can't quite pin it down.

FotR CR: The Great Eye: 1:37-2:03

Very nifty divisi there.

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Originally posted by NeoVoyager:
OK, I found the chord progression I was talking about. It's not performed by choir here, since I just can't find a choir performance. It is:

FotR CR: The Great Eye: 1:37-2:03

Very nifty divisi there.

[Message edited by NeoVoyager on 04-05-2007]

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You have a full-glory choral performance of this on the OST, #1 (The Prophecy), from 1:28 to 2:12.

And I don't think these are actual divisi. If I look at the written score for The Prophecy, I only see a lot of minor chords with an additional note stuffed in there:

D minor + E, G minor + A alternating. The pattern bears resemblances to Sauron'S Theme as well (understandably).

For a great divisi example, go to T2T CR, CD 1, #15, 4:39 to 5:00. It goes twelve ways.

Hope that helps.

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Originally posted by Christian Kühn:
You have a full-glory choral performance of this on the OST, #1 (The Prophecy), from 1:28 to 2:12.

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*That's* it! I was only looking on the CRs, and that is exactly why I couldn't find it.

Thanks for the chords... I'll try those out. BTW, I was more speaking of "divisi" as in divisions of complex chords among the players of a given section of the orchestra, not necessarily like the divisi heard in "The Heir of Numenor." But...... I digress for semantics.

P.S. When you look at the written score for The Prophecy? Hmmmmmmm. Just what kind of position are you in, Christian? Is this "written score" publicly available?

To paraphrase Mel Gibson.

No worries, Neo!

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Are you phone-able? Or, more likely, willing to talk on the phone with another LotR-nut?

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I'm a Lord of the Rings fan, I don't have a social life.

(a bit insipid a post, I know... but I had to save the thread from disappearing off my screen real estate!)

NP: Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within (Goldenthal)
****1/2 / *****

Please don't think I'm trying to keep you out of my "social life" - of course you can give me a call. Just contact me by PM or mail or whatever.

I won't post my number here, otherwise I'll soon receive phone calls from Peter, telling me the latest MM offerings <HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Social life? What social life? (OK, referring to myself here...)

And what would be so bad about PeterK harrassing you in the middle of the night?

It would also appear that I don't have your eMail address laying around...

CK

1. What do the big fans of Shore's LOTR music think of Leonard Rosenman's music for the Ralph Bakshi animated Lord of the Rings?

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Originally posted by franz_conrad:
1. What do the big fans of Shore's LOTR music think of Leonard Rosenman's music for the Ralph Bakshi animated Lord of the Rings?

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Originally posted by Marian Schedenig:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:</font><HR size=1>Originally posted by franz_conrad:
[b]1. What do the big fans of Shore's LOTR music think of Leonard Rosenman's music for the Ralph Bakshi animated Lord of the Rings?<HR size=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Masterpiece. What Shore has and Rosenman lacks is a certain Tolkien-ness, but that's partly because the movie didn't fully have that either. Musically, it is stunning (and not just the big choral fugato). I count it among the great scores of the 70s.[/B]

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What you said.

I may not like his music in general, but I think he did quite well with his LotR assignment. The song, Mithrandir, is very gorgeous.

http://www.kilohertz.nl/lotr-sap/index.php

I'll be at the LotR-Symphony in Lucerne on May 5th. (Unfortunately, Kaitlyn won't be there...)

Not to stir up a bees' nest of discussion about an old sore topic, but I thought this 'Hobbit'-related snippet of an Entertainment Weekly article might be of interest to some of us here:

"[Sam] Raimi's name has been floated in connection with The Hobbit ever since a very public dustup between Peter Jackson and New Line chairman Bob Shaye left the Lord of the Rings prequel without a director. Raimi went on the record for the first time about his potential involvement in the project during an exclusive interview with EW's Steve Daly for the magazine's Summer Movie Preview issue, on newsstands Friday: ''Peter Jackson might be the best filmmaker on the planet right now. But, um, I don't know what's going to happen next for me right now. First and foremost, those are Peter Jackson and Bob Shaye's films. If Peter didn't want to do it, and Bob wanted me to do it — and they were both okay with me picking up the reins — that would be great. I love the book. It's maybe a more kid-friendly story than the others.'' (If Raimi were to take on a complex, intense project like The Hobbit — the rights to which New Line/MGM only has for a limited amount of time — it could force Columbia to either push back its production schedule for Spider-Man 4 or find a new director for the franchise.)"

I think this is likely because from what I've read Raimi isn't doing a Spiderman 4. I read something similar about this on Movie Blog.

I think Raimi would be an interesting choice - a good one but I'm not very excited about The Hobbit being made. If the studio can't get it's act together they could really mess this up and put out a crappy film.

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Originally posted by vdemona:
>>it could force Columbia to either push back its production schedule for Spider-Man 4 or find a new director for the franchise.)"<<

I think this is likely because from what I've read Raimi isn't doing a Spiderman 4. I read something similar about this on Movie Blog.

I think Raimi would be an interesting choice - a good one but I'm not very excited about The Hobbit being made. If the studio can't get it's act together they could really mess this up and put out a crappy film.

[Message edited by vdemona on 04-16-2007]

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I agree, it's really too bad that all this BS (between Shaye and Jackson) had to happen. What pains me the most about it all is that no Hobbit movie means no Hobbit score from Shore. (This is of course assuming that Shore wouldn't compose a score for a Hobbit movie withought Jackson).

And we all know how much Shore wants to score another Middle-Earth flavored movie, because it seems when ever he is asked about it in an interview, he always expresses his willingness to score The Hobbit.

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Originally posted by Shire Bagginz:

I agree, it's really too bad that all this BS (between Shaye and Jackson) had to happen. What pains me the most about it all is that no Hobbit movie means no Hobbit score from Shore. (This is of course assuming that Shore wouldn't compose a score for a Hobbit movie withought Jackson).

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Originally posted by Sabsi:
I've been to the Lord of the Rings-Symphony in Vienna on Friday.
Kaitlyn Lusk (soprano) was great - especially Evenstar and Gollum's Song. I already heard her at Leipzig and couldn't believe she is only 16 years old...

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I was there, too, but I must say, I wasn't impressed. The highlights were still highlights (mostly), of course, and had me really excited a few times. But all in all...

The sound: Horrible. I was expecting bad sound because of the amps, but it was far worse. Not only did the instruments drown each other out during every loud passage. When there's a whole brass section playing the theme at full volume but all you can hear is the harp, something is wrong.

The orchestra: Got (the RSO usually is), though at times I got the feeling they just knew the music well enough to perform it without flaws. Well, there was a flaw once, when during the ending of FOTR, the entire brass section played two or three very wrong chords in a row. But considering they'd never played it live before, and the rest was solid (The White Tree *was* a standout), that can easily be excused.

The choir: Wasn't sure at times, sometimes they were quite good, sometimes ok, often hard to make out in the mix. They did earn my respect though during the Khazad-dum sequence. Those khuzdul ostinatos can't be easy to do without messing up the lyrics (not that I would be able to make them out, but they sounded authentic enough).

The soloists: Obviously, even the rigorously trained members of the Vienna Boys' Choir lose their nerves when performing solo in front of so many people. The boy clearly had the voice, but he was so nervous, he barely could keep a straight note. A respectable effort, but not much more than an effort. - The alto's brief moment was quite good as far as I remember (though her sounding very male had me quite surprised). - The baritone managed to sound even more mumbling than Mortensen does on the OST (I wouldn't have thought that possible ). - The soprano, though, seemed really good, especially for her age. And to perform Gollum's Song, the Arwen stuff, and Into the West within less than an hour shows quite some flexibility.

The conductor - Solid, for the most part, with some severely confusing bits. I welcome changes in interpretation, as long as they fit the music. But when the introduction to the first big fanfare statement of the Fellowship theme (when they're wandering through Hollin) is in the "right tempo", but suddenly at the beginning of the fanfare (when the Fellowship climbs over that hill in slow motion) the tempo doubles and the glorious fanfare is played like a military march, that's just not right. There were a few more moments like these, but most of the time the tempos were either pretty much like in the movies, or slightly different but perfectly appropriate.

The symphony itself... well, I'm sorry to say, it doesn't impress me either. Great as these scores are, harmonic or orchestrational complexity isn't their strong suit most of the time (several standout cues and large parts of ROTK excepted). What really makes them special is their thematic complexity and coherence. But since the "symphony" is basically just a compilation of cues from the movies, most of that gets lost, and what remains seemed like filler music much of the time. Some people keep complaining about Shore being nothing more than slow chord crescendos, and I'm afraid at times I could understand them. Those passages are no problems in the movies, and still fit very well on CD because they keep the score together. But without this coherence, they often seem to lose their purpose. In that regard, the symphony suffers from the same problems many people seem to have with the original CD release for TTT.

There were a few more mildly disappointing moments, like Foundations of Stone completely skipping the Balrog fight, or when the Silver Trumpets theme in Anduril is played without the wonderful contraction. Of course, with scores that long, some material has to be missing, but all in all, I'd rather have 1 hour of well put together music from one score (preferrably ROTK, Shelob's Lair and Minas Morgul included) than 2 hours from all three scores which frequently seem like those 20 minute catalogue trailers classical music labels put on their DVDs.

Quite harsh words from me, I'm afraid. I'll repeat that the few real highlights were just that - highlights. The White Tree was outstanding, Gollum's Song was very good and Into the West didn't lose any of its power from the original recording. I'm happy to have heard it, but considering the horrible sound quality and the other complaints above, I'm also happy I'd gotten my ticket for free.

Concerning the sound: I was surprised that the sound wasn't that bad! Hmm...
It probably depends on your position.

I thought the boy, who was singing "In Dreams" was pretty good - at least at the second verse.

But I didn't like the voice of the alto and the baritone sang "umbra-metta" instead of "ambar-metta".
How hard can it be to get 10 words right??

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Originally posted by gkgyver:

Plus, apparently there are several companies who are very interested in getting the movie rights for Tolkien's post-mortal book "The Children Of Hurin".

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Well, good luck to them. Christopher Tolkien, who has the say, has said that no further movie rights will be sold.