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In ROTK the snare drum and other percussive orchestration is far more prominent, to my ears. Do you agree? Why do you think this is so? Was it the demands of the film itself, or did Shore change this for another reason?

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Originally posted by Crippled Avenger:
Bilbo's Song blew me away. I was instantly hit with the image of Bilbo composing it on the ship, in the middle of a vast sea, with the elves behind him on the deck of the ship, surrounded by immortality and reflective of his past life in Middle-earth. It was a very strong vision. I was almost half-not wanting to hear it, as I love the Wagnerian end to the end credits, but luckily for me I found Bilbo's Song a beautiful end and am very happy with how the album ends emotionally.

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I found Bilbo's song to be a beautiful, gentle benediction to the CR.

OK, first a correction by moi: This is from an email I sent to Magpie and which she has kindly put up on her website (Under her "Similarities" section):
http://www.geocities.com/magpie930/main.htm

>>>Timdalf later wrote: I thought originally (mistakenly it seems now) it most resembled aspects of the final moments of Wagner's Die Walkuere... but in the light of the comment by the "penultimate" expert (i.e., second only to Shore himself) on Shore's score, Doug Adams, I think it is fairly clearly resolved that what Shore was specifically referencing there (as I noted in passing, but now I deem I insufficiently realized obviously) were the final moments of Wagner's Goetterdaemmerung. As DA states in the Annotated Score to RotK CR "Days of the Ring": "After a suite of musical highlights from The Return of the King, the orchestra introduces a new line, a series of rising arpeggios climbing high over overlapping chords. This is Shore's nod to Richard Wagner's Goetterdaemmerung, the final opera in his Der Ring des Nibelungen, another Ring myth." <<<

And this is from Doug Adams' blog (which to be blunt really is now a more direct place to post questions to him than this thread, as wonderful as this thread (x5!) has been over the years).
http://themusicofthelordoftheringsfilms.blogspot.com/2007/12/ongoing-discu ssion-thread-dec-2007.html

Question from "Oreb":
>>>Does Mr. Shore talk anywhere of his attitude to the Wagnerian cycle? I am wondering if the similarities are solely structural (developing motifs over a vast canvas) or if there are any more direct refences.

To my non-trained ear there are parallels between, for example, the Isengard music and the hammering of the Nibelungs motif - and both have a very sinuous ring theme as well. But these could be more related to the fact that both those elements play very similar roles within the narratives...>>>

DA's Answer:
<<<Shore knows Wagner, but he certainly would not claim to be a Wagner scholar. His taste in opera tends to be much more Italian than German. If you really want to sort through the operatic influences, I think you’ll be much more successful examining Verdi or Puccini than Wagner.

The only Wagner allusion in Shore’s LOTR scores is the Götterdämmerung near the very end of ROTK. Many have asked, “But isn’t that really a nod to material more prominent in Die Walküre or perhaps Das Rheingold?” The answer is simple… Shore, being versed in Wagner, but again not a Wagner scholar, recalled this material from Götterdämmerung when he chose to reference it. That was his intent, so thus it is listed. It’s the same reason that Stravinsky’s Greeting Prelude is not listed as Variations on a Theme by Patty and Mildred Hill. It is the composers’ intentions that are the key to understanding their work in such instances.

All this said, I’d love to see someone program Wagner and Shore on the same concert as a fascinating comparison. They may not dabble in the same harmonic languages, or share orchestrational fingerprints, but there’s much to be said for their mutual sense of drama. The New Yorker critic at large Alex Ross wrote a great piece on the two composers back in late 2003. It’s a fascinating read:
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/12/22/031222crat_atlarge

Btw, I’d like to echo Oreb’s question… any Wagner-philes among you? What do you think of the Ross piece?>>>

So, I think we have to accept DA as THE authority on questions about the Shore score, he is Dr. Shore's Boswell afterall.

My feeling now: the Wagner reference at the end of RotK is not to any specific leitmotiv, but to a typical Wagnerian rising arpeggiation that Der Meister used so often to conclude his works. There are some 14 leitmotivs forming the glorious coda of Gd (and at least 9 for the finale of Wlk) and while they too reference the opening of Rhg, the end of Wlk (since musical "reminiscence" is key (pun alert) to RW's technique in general, and any music for that matter, and everything in Wagner relates to everything else, particularly within one integral work like Der Ring!), to pick out this or that leitmotiv as being Shore's specific reference is, I think, a mistake. He doesn't need to.

I know when I sat in the theater and heard the final measures of RotK for the first time I instantly knew I was hearing something Wagneresque and was incredibly "surprised by joy" in a definitely eucatastrophic sense!

Specifically, to claim the "Nature" motiv (which has 3 forms if one wants to consult one possible source: the ENO Opera guides listing of leitmotivs devised by Lionel Friend) which one is MS referring to, that which is commonly called the Erda theme or to the Wave theme? The Magic Fire sequence of Wlk is some 15 minutes long... If the specific "Magic Fire"/"Loge" motivs are being referred to (#s 13a-b & 14 in the ENO listing) by MS, I fail to hear it. Of course, both sets of motivs are going to come up in the finale to Gd since the first refers to the waters of the Rhine and the second to Loge's fire, and both figure prominently as stage effects in the final moments as the Gibichung hall and Valhalla go up in flames lit from Sf's funeral pyre, the first to be quenched by the overflowing Rhine. But I think if one listens to the underlying arpeggiation that binds the whole scene (and those of Rhg, Walk, and Parsifal) together one hears what Shore was really recalling in his final measures to RotK.

Finally this brings up the whole LotR/Der Ring des Nibelungen comparison issue which as yet not really been dealt with authoritatively. There are some brief comparisons to be found on the Internet and other sources... These include essays by Bradley Birzer, Edward Haymes, David Harvey and rather a disappointing effort by Tom Shippey since he really gets Wagner quite wrong.

As JRRT knew well the Wagner work, as well as sharing its sources, and I think not to see the similarities requires a rather big set of blinders (as well as the very significant differences in approach and theme of both mythologists)!

Timdalf

[Message edited by Timdalf on 12-15-2007]

[Message edited by Timdalf on 12-15-2007]

[Message edited by Timdalf on 12-15-2007]

I first read this as "...he is Dr. Shore's Criswell..." and couldn't for the life of me figure out what you were on about!

Timdalf, would you perhaps consider posting this at the Blog as well... it's a very well-written piece!

-Doug

PS -- Oh, and no one's nailed the "Returning" tag for The Grey Havens. As I've hinted, it's a very non-linear application of the tag... different from the others.

Please, check out this fragmente of music of Glazunov's Suite of the Middle Ages, sounds very near to the Coronation's Theme!!!

[Message edited by Timdalf on 12-15-2007]

I'd love Doug to be involved but I think this forum has lots of equally well educated posters on it, so am not posting this on Doug's site, but my next question comes from Doug's mentioning of the Italian composers. Can anyone make any specific recommendations as to where Shore/LOTR 'descends' from the Italian opera tradition, and where the 'lineage' is?

Well, I think Christian was right...

-Sabsi

Me I had not the chance to see Howard Shore in Live but I have heard his music in live nevertheless !!

Click on me to know more about that..
http://picasaweb.google.fr/romualdb7/LotrSymphonyKLn/photo?authkey=QOTuj0zrV pM#5144999657213073282

Doug I have a question for you.
and maybe the question is How I have to expect the question that is : It is sure Howard Shore will make the Score of the Movie(s) made from the JRR TOLKIEN's Book : "The Hobbit" ?

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Originally posted by Doug Adams: I feel good

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Is there gonna be a book?
When will the Complete Recordings be released? And how many discs will there be?

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Originally posted by Kevin:
Yeah, I just read the news over at Variety.

(Keeping fingers crossed that Shore gets the nod).

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Jackson 'too busy' to direct Hobbit films
Reuters | Wednesday, 19 December 2007

BUSY BEE: Peter Jackson and his partner Fran Walsh will executive produce two Hobbit films, but Jackson is too busy to direct them, a New Line spokesman said.

The makers of the smash hit Lord of the Rings films have settled a legal dispute and agreed to make two movies based on JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit, but most likely without Peter Jackson directing.

Oscar winner Jackson, however, has signed on as executive producer along with his wife and producing partner, Fran Walsh, who also was instrumental in making the three Lord of the Rings films that earned $US3 billion at global box offices.

In recent months, loyal Rings and Tolkien fans loudly proclaimed on internet sites that they would not support a Hobbit movie without Jackson's involvement, and today’s announcement brought them some
welcome relief.

"Fist in the Air! YEEEEESSSSS!!! ... "TRUST PETER!!! THE MASTER, THE COMMANDER, THE WIZARD!," one person posted at fan site, www.theonering.net.

New Line co-chairman Bob Shaye said no decision has been made about who will direct The Hobbit movies, but Jackson, Walsh and the studios share approval on major creative elements and will start considering writers and directors in January.

MGM Chairman Harry Sloan, who was credited by all parties for bringing about the deal, said Jackson found it "impossible" to direct the films and meet proposed release dates in 2010 and 2011 due to other projects in the works.

"He can't get it scheduled and he doesn't want the fans to have to wait for the next two movies," Sloan said. He said the studios might postpone the films if Jackson changed his mind.

Ken Kamins, manager for Jackson and Walsh, said it was "highly unlikely" Jackson would write or direct, but he would insure their quality by keeping creative control.

Kamins pointed out that George Lucas had ceded director's duties to others for The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi without damaging the Star Wars franchise.

Jackson was unavailable for comment.

JACKSON'S VISION

Fantasy novel The Hobbit tells of a world inhabited by wizards, dwarves, elves and little people called hobbits, including the central character, Bilbo Baggins. The Hobbit preceded Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy.

The Ring films were released from 2001 through 2003.

Jackson and Walsh envision the first film covering the events of The Hobbit and the second bridging the 80-year gap between that novel and the first book of the trilogy.

Much of the plot for the second film would be gleaned from footnotes in The Hobbit that address that gap, Kamins said.

It was that vision that led MGM, which holds film rights to the book, to insist Jackson and Walsh make the movies.

"Once (they) played out their vision for The Hobbit as two movies ... MGM just took the position that we wanted to deal with Peter and it was not an option to do it with anybody else," Sloan said.

He added the studios "would welcome as much of the original (Rings) cast as possible," adding that "some of them have even said they are interested".

Gandalf: No, no it isn't.

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Originally posted by dambedir:
Gandalf:
From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak, I fought him, the Balrog of Morgoth.

Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside. Darkness took me. And I strayed out of thought and time. Stars wheeled overhead and each day was as long as a life age of the earth. [b]But it was not the end. I felt life in me again. I've been sent back until my task is done.

[/B]

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Aragorn: Gandalf!

Gandalf: Gandalf? Yes... That was what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.

Gimli: Gandalf!

Gandalf: I am Gandalf the White. And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Gandalf: One stage of your journey is over, another begins. We must ride to.....

with the Hobbit it seems that is the return of Gandalf the grey !!!!

What is going on with this release????